Boiling up old German Kraut - remastering Grobschnitt live on the web...

PHP:

As Eroc has said earlier each era has it's own technology. I'm of the opinion if he can enhance the MT without suffocating the dynamics then go for it. He did wonders on the early Gentle Giant catalog though everyone might not agree, I think the general consensus was very favorable. I know a lot of die hard GG fans would like to see The Missing Piece completely remixed because of the bad monitors that were used to make the original mix and that may be in the works! It's from the same year, 1977, as RPL btw. An engineer/musician in Sweden has the original multi tracks and broached the idea in the recent past on the GG mailing list. If I'm not mistaken at different points some of the Who's, Elton John's and the Beatles catalog have been remixed from the multitracks to get the most punch and clarity. This is a bad thing? It's not historically accurate enough? Most musicians are not ultimately satisfied with the work they've done and would do things differently if they had the chance again. A lot go back and rerecord their songs... more blasphemy? I understand the original impetus and the time in which it was created is what it is... I'm not arguing the merits of that. Still, if certain areas can be tweaked... then wtf not??

 

I just got into this thread tonight. Eroc, you've got an interesting thing happening here! My knowledge of this genre's limited, although I recognize Connie Plank and really love Neu! The following is a review at the Forced Exposure site regarding Grobschnitt, and thought it might be of some interest. Hope I'm not stepping on any toe's!


Artist: GROBSCHNITT
Title: Die Grobschnitt Story
Label: BRAIN (GERMANY)
Format: 2CD
Price: $20.00
Catalog #: BRAIN 963
Double CD compilation of rare tracks put together by the band's most visible member, drummer Eroc. This is the original 1994 2CD version on Metronome (going through the Brain archives). More recently this set was reissued by Repertoire as part of their new Brain series -- and actually, we meant to order that version. But screwed up and ordered this version instead. If we ever sell out of the stock of this pressing (a distinct non-possibility considering the theatricality of Grobschnitt's music!), we will probably "upgrade" the Repertoire version (which is supposedly remastered, but the same track-wise). "This is the story of Grobschnitt -- or rather, part I of the story of Grobschnitt, perhaps the best German band of the 70s. A 6-piece from Hagen, Grobschnitt was more than a musical group -- part rock, part circus act, part theatre, famous for 3 hour long concerts spectacles. They were once considered to be the German version of Zappa's Mothers of Invention."

Artist: GROBSCHNITT
Title: Solar Music Live
Label: BRAIN (GERMANY)
Format: CD
Price: $6.00
Catalog #: BRAIN 984
The first CD version of this album of live Grobschnitt from 1978. This has been superseded by an expanded version on Repertoire, but we received a handful of these in error and would love to find somebody who could be made happy via a cheaper, shorter, slightly less deluxe copy of this theatrical prog monster!

 

flat !!!

 

I guessed you would say that, Jeff – fact is: a totally flat 1:1 transfer will cause problems. I’ll explain it in the next chapter in a few days on my website and will show, what could happen in that case. It might well open up your eyes and ears a little more, I suppose.

To be honest: you matched exactly my own opinion...

“Downgrade” sounds not quite fair, Chris – the REP reissues got the best reviews everywhere and I received tons of mails from fans who were absolutley delighted and satisfied with them. Remember: NOT everyone is an audiophile and we can’t keep our biz going by only selling to the audiophiles.

RUIN it??? What do you mean by “I’m going to ruin it”...? Maybe I’m not quite familiar with the English language. Sorry for that. My school lessons ended almost 41 years ago...

Your statement feels quite reasonable, Dok. Of course there are some ways to get old recordings enhanced and more listening-attractive without damaging their dynamics and the frequency-response. I will show in the next chapter and explain in detail.

Great news, Mike – never have heard about that company before. Maybe they should refer to my website to gather more knowledge about the band.

As flat as you’re raging thru the bends with your blade, Claus???



- Eroc

 

I think everyone should read this slowly and multiple times before continuing whining about a flat transfer.

 

I call it begging!

Seriously, I listened to all samples and hearing the o-tape sample was like a revelation. I'm not a "only flat is the way to get" kind of guy and some peak limiting to match todays listeners expectations regarding loudness levels will be OK, but please no EQ or compressing.

OTOH, I will wait for EROC's mastering till I make my "ultimate judgement". Maybe there's some improvement.

 

Oops.


Geez Eroc, you're kind of taking what I said out of context. From reading your post, and your not so accurate quote, it looks like I've made up my mind that you are going to ruin the remaster. I don't think that's quite fair to me to zero in on that after all of the time I spent reviewing and commenting on this project.

I specifically made a point in saying it wasn't because of you personally (meaning your work), but because that's been my experience with 95% of the remasters I've bought recently.

I like your mastering of Octopus. It's in that 5% of the ones I like that I've purchased recently that I like. But I don't like the loudness on the last remaster of Rockpommel's Land. It's lost too much of the dynamics and that ruins it for me.

I think a lot of people here feel that way, that's why you're seeing all the comments about a flat transfer from the master tapes.

I retract my poor choice of words however and would like to replace them with "I'm afraid that you might opt to make the CD louder than my preference". (Which by the way, would ruin it for me)

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

I really apprechiate your qualified suggestions and respect your opinion. It's very interesting and important what you checked out with your equipment. I agree on your (and all the other) opinions here that the REP CD is rather loud and compressed. I did it this way a) 9 years ago with less gear and less experience and b) with the intention to screw it up like Conny and me did during the vinyl-cut in 1977. I just wanted to match the character of the (distorting) vinyl finale somehow, without those harsh distortions but with that ulta fat bursting sound.

Meanwhile I know how things can be done a lot better and that's one reason why I'm running this thread.

I have read carefully over your statement with "ruin" again. Forgive me, but as you probably know I'm a native German and always have to translate everything I read here step by step. Some phrases and idioms just are not familiar to me and the dictionary sometimes can't help. I first thought you wanted to express that you fear I would "ruin" the project in the end.

For God's sake - that's definitely not the case. I really know what kind of treasure I've got with this master tape...

- Eroc

 

Thanks And I surely could of worded my opinion better, sorry!

And let me say again that I'm glad you're doing this, not just because it's very nice of you to consider the opinions here as you work on it, but because it's a fascinating learning experience to observe the way an experienced pro such as yourself approaches a project in action.

And you sure do have a treasure with that tape!!

Personally, that's probably my favorite Grobschnitt, though Ballerman comes in a close 2nd. Then probably Jumbo...I was listening to Illegal the other day, and enjoying that. Hell, they're all good! I'm just missing the one between Jumbo and Illegal, I forget the name of it...

Dave

 

I was listening to Illegal on Friday at work (as well as Volle Molle, '79) and Illegal IS great, I think it stands up to the standards set by the previous work, it's just hard not being put of by the horrid cover design....

 

You are missing THE ONE between Jumbo and Illegal? Is this meant to be joke???

Here's the exact list now:

Grobschnitt - 1972
Ballermann - 1974
Jumbo (GB) - 1975
Jumbo (D) - 1976
Rockpommel's Land - 1977
Solar Music Live- 1978
Merry Go Round - 1979
Volle Molle - 1980
Illegal - 1981
Razzia - 1982
____________________ Eroc left the band in June 1983

Kinder & Narren - 1984
Fantasten - 1985
Sonnentanz - 1987
Last Party - 1989

 

In this comparison, it is hard to imagine that the o-tape could be improved at all. It sounds phenomenal, dynamic and of very balanced tonality. The Metronome CD is close, but the low end is a bit clouded. Was it transferred from a copy tape?

Flat transfer or not, here are three things that this recording does not need in my opinion:
1. additional compression
2. a treble boost
3. noise reduction

 

Definitely not.

I'll show up in a few days with more examples. I was thinking of some slight (!) NR only in the last few seconds where you can hear the musicians joking. I'll post some examples on this, too. Maybe I could convince Mal on that...

- Eroc

 

I don't see what this would accomplish. Those who are not interested in "audiophile" mastering (i.e. the majority of the target buyers) won't notice the hiss in that section anyway. The o-tape sounds great and the hiss is tame and inoffensive.

 

Oops, I was thinking Jumbo was after Rockpommel.

As for the others,Volle Molle & Solar Music Live (as original and awesome as they may be) are live albums, I tend to speak in terms of studio albums. Give me a break here, I was 9 years old in 1977. And I said I was a fan, not an obsessed fan.

Thanks for the list though!

Dave

 

I agree. The hiss gives the studio chatter an "authentic atmosphere". Live from tape.

Maybe it's an odd idea , but adding some "crackle" during the chatter would give this bit some kind of nice retro feeling.

 

Could you translate what is being said there? I was wondering the other day.

And I don't think that would be the end of the world to use some slight NR on that part. I'm in favor of that idea. Given that the voices were as far away from the mics as they appear to have been on that part, I don't see the frequency spectrum of the actual voices being hurt to any degree (not much in common with the tape hiss), or at least to any noticable degree.

A lot of people shudder when they hear the words"Noise Reduction"- but I've messed with it a lot, and in very slight amounts, it can be a useful tool in my opinion.

 

That is an odd idea.

But your first point about the tape hiss is something I had not considered. Hmm.... I could go either way on this one.

 

I'm "shuddering", too, when I think of the kind of "NR" I hear on many CDs. I can't understand what kind of crap some banana-benders try to run for when they're "de-noising" tracks. NR is a pure science. I am one of the leading "scientists" for that. I have the world's leading NR tools here. And I can tell from my heart that the discussion "NR or not NR" is somehow senseless because like compression the de-noising process, too, comes along in a million of ways. I de-noised recently 56 Dylan's root-tracks ranging from 1926 to 1940. And they still have a huge amount of audible hiss. But without that "clever" NR a huge amount of details would have stayed buried forever in these great songs. I'll show up here with sound-examples concerning NR, too, in a few days and then... everyone can pull the trigger on me.

What are the musicians joking about after the RPL finale? Well, the sadest story of all: our bass-player, "Popo" Hunter, presently is with one leg already in heaven. He will die in a few days or weeks. He's lying in coma since three weeks now because some idiot called "doctor" had cut his oxygen supply by accident for more than 12 minutes!

At the end of the RPL recordings "Popo" Hunter had to play a tremolo on his bass. And it had to last for the whole final minutes. And he was very tough and managed to let his fingers fly somehow. And after the tune was finished he ended up standing on one leg with his bass closely hugged and not able, to move any more. But he was laughing into tears and all the others joined in: "look at Popo, he became a real statue...".

Memorabilia for me. And when I'm presently restoring the old tapes and the concerts for the GS-Story (even the first gig ever with "Popo" on bass), in some moments reality catches me in a very special way. But it's possible to remaster music with tears running down your face, believe me. And in those moments I give a damn on opinions about NR. I just want to HEAR LOUD AND CLEAR what we (and Popo) back then had to say in Conny's good old studio.

That's it. Not more and not less...


- Eroc

 

this is a really interesting process,...............we have been discussing the use of compression , the source to mater , I'm looking forward to NR.....in this topic I agree on that with eroc, it's a tool that used extensively can damage a lot and sustract a lot of enjoyment from music..........

 

No, please do not get rid of ambient musician chatter, that's one of the key aspects of Grobschnitt (musicians having fun & kidding around)!

I was hesitant to inquire about this since you first mentioned it to me, since this is so tragic. How are you coping?

 

True - and I'm still livin' it up.

He called me up only six weeks ago, asking for some technical details for his studio - I'd never suspected this being our last chat forever. So it was like it ever was: ambient musician's chatter. I don't regret...

- Eroc

 

That is very sad news. I'm so sorry Eroc, my sympathies to you for this tragedy that has befallen your friend.

Dave

 

Thank you - our music will prevail...

- Eroc

 

This is a really tragic thing to hear, Eroc. His oxygen was cut for 12 minutes? :thumbsdn:

This is terrible news.

I always dug Popo's bass playing. I can certainly understand where there must be moments these days when "audiophile" talk seems insignificant.

Play some Grobschnitt loud and cry for your great memories of your friend. And if you like the Rep version, play that thing until your walls fall down because in the end, after all of our two-bit opinions, music is what it's all about, man!