Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' - CD sound comparisons

Since you are referring to the Rhino and the Castle '96 version, I would agree with you that none of these are mastered that great.

I do like the original Castle versions and/or the WB. I still have to decide which version of which album I do prefer (it seems like the 1986 Castles are better for the early albums, not sure about the later ones from 1975).

Or probably some of the early (second?) Japanese versions are the way to go, but they are just too hard to find for most of us.

Jeff, we really need your input on the original Castle vs. WB comparison for some of the albums.

Roland

 

Well, here's an update and this will delay the CDR samples I'm making for you, Roland.

I have just discovered that the '96 Castles are different (lower in volume) than the Castle mini lp box. Since there have been reports of the 2004 Castles sounding different (even "better") than the 1996 editions, I am presuming that Castle simply raised the volume on these repressed CDs

The '96 mastering of Vol.4 has little or no compression. It uses up the full capacity of digital but from looking at the waveforms, I see no signs of compression. It has plenty of breathing room. The version from the Castle mini lp (from the 1970-1978 replica boxset) has been turned up significantly. By modern standards, or compared to the Rhino Black Box, it still has some breathing room, but it is louder.

I now have to specifically seek out the '96 Castle remasters. I currently have the '96 Castle remaster of SBS and I think this may be the definitive version of this album on CD. Despite a bit of bass boost, the drums sound so superior to any other version I've heard that it is amazing. The shrill, tinny sound is really gone and it sounds like listening to vinyl. "Spiral Architect" is massive and dynamic. I really think these '96 Castles might be the best choice in some cases.

Further review required.

 

Jeff, can you post the 96' Vol. 4 WAV chart?

 

This is a GREAT thread.

I agree that the '96 Castle SBS is killer.

I first bought the '96 Castle for Sabbath Bloody Sabbath (at the time, they were imports at Amazon, and not at all cheap). I was blown away by the sound, and blindly bought up all the rest of the '96 Castles up to Heavan and Hell, but minus Never Say Die and and Technical Ecstasy (I now have those in mini-LP format).

Based on comments here, I gave the '96 Sabotage a spin, and would agree, the '96 Castle is no great shakes. Very limited dynamics, and weak bass. In fact, my original vinyl (not in the best condition) smokes it handily.

I just won an e-bay auction for a WB non-remastered (I assume) Sabotage. I look forward to its arrival.

Brian

 

Jeff, did you listen to the 1986 Castle samples I sent? Did you receive them yet?

Roland

 

when you refer to 2004 Castle CDs, are you talking about the Sanctuary discs currently available in stores? always thought these were just straight rereleases of the 1996 Castles, it would be a shame to discover that they have been futzed with.

 

when you refer to 2004 Castle CDs, are you talking about the Sanctuary discs currently available in stores? always thought these were just straight rereleases of the 1996 Castles, it would be a shame to discover that they have been futzed with.

 

Yes.

And I am assuming that since they jacked up the volume on the mini lp set they issued in 2001 (?) that the 2004 CDs are probably also louder, but I haven't confirmed this yet.

 

Roland,

I have listened to Vol. 4 and SBS thus far. They are excellent. These are vastly superior to the US WB CDs of these albums, IMO. Further evidence of my suspicion that for the s/t through SBS, Warner has tapes that were EQd for vinyl.

Btw, since I have learned that my Castle mini lp boxset I just got has louder mastering than the '96 Castles, I can only sample for you the following for now, as I had planned on sampling from this set. I foolishly assumed this replica mini lp boxset would have the same mastering as the '96 versions.

Anyway, I can do these:

SBS - Castle remaster (1996 version)
Vol. 4 - Castle remaster (1996 version)
Sabotage - US WB

The Vol. 4 and SBS you sent are the issues with the live bonus tracks from Live At Last, correct?

These are great! The old Castles (non-remastered) may be the holy grail for certain Sabbath albums. Did they do Heaven and Hell, btw? I don't like the US WB of that on CD and the Castle remaster sounds tweaked too much with EQ.

 

Maybe I can help out some. I have the Black Box, Castle mini-LP replica set and the Castle '96 remasters of BS-Sabotage+Live at Last. Haven't done a thorough comparison or anything yet, but would be happy to check them out and answer any specific questions. Could also post clips.

Btw, my Castle '96 Paranoid has the dropout in Fairies. I've heard this was later corrected. Now, were there actual Castle '96 CDs with this corrected or was it not fixed until the replica box?

 

Hello Jeff,

glad you like the 1986 Castles of Vol. 4 and SBS. I like those too.

The Vol. 4 is from the version with the live bonus track (I don't have the one w/o the bonus track yet). For SBS, I have both versions, with and without bonus live trakc, and they both sounded the same to me.

I am very interested in your evaluation of Sabotage. I also like the Castle 1986 but you said you really like the WB of that one. I would assume that the Castle is superior, but I could be wrong.

In case you clearly like the 1986 Castle better than the WB of Sabotage, then I don't need to hear any samples. I am happy with the 1986 Castles so far. I am very interested in hearing some of the early Japanese versions, they could be even better.

Heaven and Hell was not done by Castle in 1986 I don't think. I don't even know if Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die! were done by Castle in 1986.

Roland

 

It was corrected on '96 repressings.

As far as what you have, the '96 issues are best, IMO. The mini replica box raises the volume and probably adds some compression. The Black Box is mostly a mess, sonically.

 

I had a corrected drop out 96 Castle in a jewel case. The drop out is VERY obvious if present.

 

Hi Jeff,

I was just wondering if you compared the WB US Sabotage to the 1986 Castle yet. I am here in the U.S. for one more week, and I can pick up the WB US from a used CD store for a reasonable price, but it makes no sense for me buying it if the Castle 1986 is superior (since I already have that one).

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Roland

 

Hi Roland,

I meant to drop you a PM on this. I recommend the US WB. It beats the original Castle, IMO. It is particularly noticeable on *certain* tracks and the tracks VARY.

For some reason, "Hole In The Sky" is much brighter on the old Castle. The smoothness of the WB wins for me, but this is might differ for you.

But on the old Castle, "Symptom" is totally screwed up (muffled terribly compared to the WB!!).

Unless something went wrong in decoding PE on the CDR you made, the WB is the winner here by considerable margin.

Maybe the tapes for this one ended up in the US?

Anyway, grab the WB, you'll be happy you did once you A/B them.

 

Man, I'm really starting to get disillusioned with music buying. The below is just referring to Paranoid . . .

First I buy the WB cd -

Then sell that when I bought the '96 Castle remaster -

Then sell that when I bought the Castle mini lp -

Then sold that when I bought the Black Box Set -

Then just picked up the Sanctuary '04 release thinking it's a re-release of the Castle '96 -

So at the moment I have both the Black Box and Sanctuary versions. I just did a listening comparison of War Pigs and the Black Box is considerably louder. Based on that I'd be surprised if the '04 Sanctuary could be that much louder than the '96 Castle. Too bad I didn't keep, or at least burn, the Castle mini lp I had to see if it's the same as the '04 Sanctuary.

But anyway, I should've just ignored the "remaster" faze that started in the early ninties . . . I'd be sooooo much richer and still have the better versions in most cases. Very very frustrating.

 

Roland,

Just to add. Here is what I've confirmed from the CDR you sent:

On the original Castle of Sabotage, both Symptom and Megalomania are mangled horribly compared to the WB CD. Something went wrong there or the tapes are bad. The difference will astound you when you compare.

 

It's frustrating, I know. As fas the difference in volume on the Castles. The mini lp version had an average RMS of about -12 in the left chanel on the mini, versus -16 on the '96 Castle. That's a pretty big jump and compression was most certainly applied to attain that difference.

I wonder if Ray Staff (Whitfield Studios), who remastered the Sabs catalog issued on Castle in '96, knows that this was done to his work?

 

Jeff -

Thanks so much for all you analysis and info. I've ditched the Black Box, purchased the Castle remasters for the first five and the original WB for the other 3, and they are MUCH better. They're not perfect, but they can be improved with some tweaking.

 

You're probably right, why would they goose the volume on the mini lp (came out in '01 I think?) then go back to the original '96 for the '04. There is a very big difference between the BB and the '04 though.

So, in your opinion would the WB issues from '90 be the best bet for SBS and Sabotage (It appears they're at Best Buy here for $6.99), or would the '96 Castle remasters be the way to go.

 

For Sabotage, yes, get the original WB and crank that baby! A super sounding stereo experience! That may be one of the best sounding heavy rock discs I own.

For SBS, I prefer the Castle remaster from '96. The WB sounds like it was made from a tape EQd for vinyl to my ears.

 

Nice! Yeah, those first five will be a bit boomy, but they aren't crispy like the Rhinos.

 

Great, thanks for the advice!

 

Got bored, so I gathered up samples of my Sabotage's. There are clips from Black Box, WB CD, WB LP & Castle '96/Replica 70s set (for this track, they were identical - might be for whole album, didn't check). I've labeled the tracks 1-4 and included an answer key, so the test can be done blind or not. Only changes were gain adjustments. All CD tracks were extracted with proper EAC settings. The WB LP was recorded at 24/48, so you may not want to look at the file size or such if trying to do a blind test. Anyway, would like to hear what people think.

http://rapidshare.de/files/31215940/Sabotage.zip.html

Also, I'd love if anyone could post this clip from other sources like the non-remastered Castle CD & Vertigo LP.

 

Roland, when you get home post your thoughts on the WB vs the 1986 Castle after you do a shoot-out listen please.