Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' - CD sound comparisons

Michael, I'm only talking mastering.

 

LOL on the Yes remasters, Jeff. I have to turn the treble down if/when I listen to both the Yes remasters and the "Symptom of the Universe" comp in my car....ouch!

I too have picked up a couple of the Castle remasters recently (Vol. 4 and Paranoid). They are Sanctuary 2004 releases with otherwise same packaging as the 1996 Castles, and I really like the sound of them...sold my old US WBs after picking them up!

---Matt, tired of folks screaming in his ear....

 

I realize that. But how do you know it's the mastering? I think completely different mixing strategies (read: drugs) were utilized for Sabotage and Paranoid, and assuming that the differences in the resulting CDs are due to mastering doesn't take that into account.

Which edition do you prefer?

 

Hmmm, I wonder if it's a case of another silent remaster then perhaps or a different mastering than its US. sibling? The copy I own is an original Canadian non-remastered WB's catalog #CD 2822. Matrix #CD-2822 MFG BY CINRAM #920128HH.

It may be better than any post masterings of Sabotage, but its mastering doesn't hold a candle compared to the others I previously mentoned.

Out of curiousity Jeff... Throw on your WB Sabotage, crank it up to a loud level and play Hole In The Sky. Then without touching the volume play either War Pigs/Luke's Wall or Ironman from the original WB's Paranoid and describe what you hear after you raise the volume to match. ie: differences in mastering only.

 

What you describe also illustrates mixing differences.

 

I know it's the mastering because if it were originally recorded analog at these levels you would have tape signal saturation and it would sound like complete crap. I've never heard another reputable studio recorded album sound this bad if you're correct however Michael. What I'd be curious to know is if anyone has done a Vinyl against CD shoot-out to see if there's a really good Vinyl pressing that would just confirm my suspicians.

Actually, I'm on the hunt for a decent sounding mastering of Sabotage on CD with no winners so far.

 

So, you're saying that no analog tape of that vintage (1975) could hold that kind of level?

I'm no expert, but I find that hypothesis curious. On what basis have you determined this?

 

Basically, yes. You would be able to actually hear saturation of the overindulged signal levels on tape and they wouldn't sound anything like what I'm hearing. I can't even see this being a mixing issue due to the fact the original master tapes were originally recorded for Vinyl and Cassette releases. What I'm hearing would not be possible for a Vinyl cutting lathe to handle.

I've determined this because I've been recording/playing back on various machines, some in studios, since 1966 and know how good/bad an analog recording can sound.

 

A good mastering engineer and a good lathe computer can do a lot of stuff - including attenuate the top end for vinyl cutting, etc, if it's really THAT drastic. So I'm not sure how that supports your argument. My point: we don't have the information necessary to determine whether mix or mastering is responsible for the sound of the current CD - too many variables, and none of us were there. If you want to say you like the sound of the CD or not, obviously that's your perogative.

That's good; I'd hate to think you were basing your estimation of the signal capabilities of various vintage tape stocks on experiments with recording CDs to cassette.

 

Dave, did you ever hear the original Castle version from 1986. I have it, and I think it sounds good. Not compressed for sure (besides the compression which was probably used during mastering/mixing the original album).

Maybe Jeff can post a sound sample of this version soon.

Overall, I think Sabotage had a cooler/harder sound than let's say Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, but I think this was part of the recording. It's almost like the first real "heavy metal" album, isn't it.

Roland

 

Dave,

I'm just not sure what you're hearing on this one, man. Unless that old Canadian disc is screwed up. The standard US WB issue of Sabotage is a flat out stunning disc. And btw, this is probably the best produced Sabbath album from the 70s, IMO. Many of the ideas really predate The Wall by four years. Loads of stuff going on. On headphones one can really hear how much freaking effort Iommi put into producing this with Mike Butcher and the engineering was done by Butcher and Robin Black.

Coincidentally, I have been on a big Sabs kick the last couple of months and have recently been just cranking this disc. It sounds fantastic to my ears! Paranoid is a totally different approach. That'd be like comparing Saucerful of Secrets to Wish You Were Here. I have even been cranking Sabotage recently on the Bose system in my car, which tends to be bright, and it is not an earbleeder at all! The guitar tones are very, VERY crunchy and have a lot of midrange. Maybe it's that sound that doesn't work for you or maybe you just have a faulty pressing.

I'll try to post a sample later from the US WB.

 

No, no cassette recording until 1977 for me. Fair enough and like I stated in the begining it sounds like a mastering problem, but hey I'm open to being proven wrong.

 

No I haven't heard this one yet, but for any critical listening I won't be using my computer.

Hmmm, I don't know I kind of thought the S/T was and still is heavy metal.

 

I'm a big Sabbath fan myself of the Ozzy years and so far only Sabotage's mastering has let me down. Perhaps my mastering is different if yours sounds so good. This sucker really gets fatiguing at cranked volume on my system, but I can listen to the others crankled up all day long with absolutely no audio fatigue. Man I want to find a good mastering of this one.

 

Okay Dave, here is a short sample from "Hole In The Sky" from my US WB CD of Sabotage:

US WB 2822-2 (matrix: 1 2822-2 SRC-02)


http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=E401F6063556B75A

 

And here is a snippet from the end of Symptom:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=84974308082D30E1

 

I haven't compared everything yet from the Castle and BB, but just listening back and forth from the S/T album, I'm wondering how much different the Castle & BB master tapes really were, other than the tape glitches. The equalization is the only real difference I can hear, but yeah, that is a BIG difference. It's kind of difficult to talk dynamics as far as the S/T goes, because you just have loud and louder, and the dynamic peaks seem squashed either way.

Take everything from around 6k to 13.5k and jack it up--instant Rhino remaster.

 

You know, there's a great argument for the '96 Castles over the Rhino box that nobody seems to have brought up yet. What if you simply don't want anything past the first two or three albums? That pretty much makes the decision for you, innit?

 

Finally I found my original spiral label Vertigo. This is made in Italy?, and have catalogue number 6360 011. There is a chance this won't sound as good as the original UK pressing but anyway this is what I found compared to the original 1986 Castle CD:

The LP have more "bloom" and is a tad "tighter" in it's presentation. The Castle CD (1986) seams clearer and have more air.

The Lp also have the tone mentioned above.

To me it's a matter of apples and oranges and I can easily live with both.

 

Is this "tone" audible only when using headphones? The only reason I ask is that I don't hear it on my Japan Vertigo second pressing CD

 

Maybe it is't there.

I use headphones to detect this tone.

The tone is not very loud, you have to listen carefully. It only last for a little more than 1 second at around 30-32 seconds into Rat salad. I think the tone is around 13000 Hertz.

By the way. To me this tone (and other small defects) means absolutely nothing. It's the overall impression of the sound I find important when deciding which CD i like the best.

 

I totally agree with you. I find this one website which list all the dropouts on the different versions of Black Sabbath CD's quite ridiculous. He recommends the version with the least dropouts, and not the one with the best overall sound (or his mastering taste is a little off...).

I wasn't even able to detect the droputs he mentioned on the CD's I own (S/T, Vol.4, SBS, Sabotage), they are so minute.

Roland

 

I just "acquired" both the Castle and the Rhino versions of Paranoid in FLAC format and have been comparing them.

To be perfectly frank, I don't think either mastering is that great. The Rhino has classic razor highs but the Castle has some weirdness in the lows that sounds sort of nasal-ish and undefined. My guess is that it was a murkily produced album in the first place, and the Castle is being more honest whereas the Rhino boys simultaneously fixed some problems with the lows while creating new ones in the highs.

One thing I noticed in the Rhino was what sounds like a tape flaw at about 2:52 in War Pigs. Not there in the Castle.

 

Are you referring to the 1996 Castle remaster or the original Castle version from 1986?

Roland

 

The labeling said '96. I'd trust the labeling since I think the music was... uh... "made available" by a forum member here, because this forum's name was invoked in the comments under the torrent listing. Uh, I mean... err... torrent? What's that? I ain't never heard of that before. That's crazy talk.

Hey, what's that over there?

*runs away*