Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' - CD sound comparisons

Avoid the Castle remaster of Live Evil - lots of stage banter cut and one channel has the treble attenuated. Sounds like WB US taking revenge on the UKs provision of such a crappy master tape copy for Paranoid.

 

Thanks Roland, for a great answer.
So, there is only one Castle mastering, without live bonus track, fixed w/o live bonus track, & with live bonus track.
I'll do w/o the compression & live track and attemp to track down the first issues (except for the "fixed" disc).
Before this thread was started (thank you), I was looking for the Vertigo's.
And, before that the WB's.
Oh well!

 

What about the Under The Wheels Of Confusion box set. Is it the same mastering as the individual Castle albums?

 

Hello Barry,

my friend also has this one (it is a 4-CD set).

In my opinion, it sounds pretty bad. Not recommended.

Not sure what mastering this is, but definitely not the original Castle mastering nor the WB mastering.

Roland

 

I hate to complicate things but I believe I have read that there are differences in sound on some early Castles w/ and w/o the live bonus track.

Here's what I know regarding the first (s/t) album:

Castle UK (orig. Japan pressed) w/ live bonus track sound phenomenal. The orig. Castle (French pressed) is the same.

Castle remaster of the s/t album is superb, but bass is probably goosed a bit. Does *not* sound compressed. Very warm with plenty of midrange. If compression was used it was very slight. Remastered by Ray Staff at Whitfield Studios. Booklet shows the 1/4" reel boxes, iirc.

Note: Original Castle _Master of Reality_ w/o live bonus track sounds poor. Would like to hear the one w/ the live bonus.

 

About the S/T debut,

Here is a short sample from the Teichiku mini-LP:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2fgjog

This is typical of what this disc sounds like. How does this compare to other pressings mentioned here?

 

The Teichiku mini lp CD uses the 1996 Castle remastering.

 

I think I went by your recommendation when I bought that disc Jeff, but I find nothing "very warm" about it, unfortunately. Maybe that's just what the OMT sounds like, but I may avoid the Castle remasters if this is typical.

 

Yeah, I remember telling you that I wasn't sure yet but it might just be the Castle remaster.

Anyway, it is warm but bassy, IMO. If that midrange on "Behind The Wall Of Sleep" isn't warm, I don't know what could possibly be described that way for a 1969 recording. The WB CD, by comparison, is an earbleeder. Lots of high end, not enough midrange. The original Castle (non-remastered) sounds very similar to the Castle remaster except the bottom end isn't as big.

Anyway, avoid my recs, I guess.

 

I just listened to your sample and it sounds a bit harsh and tinny. Here's a sample from the Castle remaster that causes me to describe this as "warm."

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=10B819C35BB61C1E

 

Well, I do appreciate the suggestions Jeff, and wasn't suggesting I would avoid your recommendations...I was just making an observation. I suppose I shouldn't expect too much from the old Sabbath recordings. I hope to hear the original Vertigo LPs someday.

 

hi all,

a nice substitute and/or alternative for those who want to hear something very close to original UK Vertigo's (at least for the album "Paranoid") might be to check out NEMS LP pressings of their albums.

i can vouch for "Paranoid" and say that the copy i have (1980's Japanese NEMS LP pressing) uses a source close to (or, perhaps identical) to the Vertigo.

i'm not sure how much the NEMS usually go for, but i'd bet they are cheaper than original UK Vertigo's. i paid about $10 US for my MINT Japanese LP copy of "Paranoid".

hope this helps!

thanx.

 

It depends what you're expecting. Many feel that the first Sabbath album sounds great and I agree. But if one is looking for serious, complex production and sonics, you have to look to an album like Sabotage, not the first few albums.

Btw, how does the sample I posted sound?

 

Jeff, do you know which non-remastered Castle versions have differences between the versions with bonus live track and the ones without?

Your above statement suggests that there are no differences for the S/T debut album.

I can confirm that there are no differences for Sabbath Bloody Sabbath either.

I would really like to know regarding Paranoid, Master of Reality and Vol. 4.

I also read about all these dropouts on many of the Black Sabbath releases, but listening to the S/T album and SBS, I have to say I haven't really noticed anything. I didn't listen to the whole albums via headphones, and I am not saying that there aren't any dopouts at all, but they are certainly not destracting at all on these two releases.

The info regarding Master of Reality (original Castle version is not very good) is helpful, thanks.

Roland

 

Jeff, I agree, I think the first Sabbath album sounds nice and warm (I have only heard the original Castle which I love).

I also think SBS sounds really nice as well.

Roland

 

I know this may sound ignorant - but as a "pre-Hoffman Forum Subscriber", should I ditch my Rhino Black Box <which I was SO exited about getting when it came out> and re-seek the Castle remasters that I traded in to get the dang Rhino box? This is some major bad news to me, although I have next to no intention of doing such a ridiculous/redundant thing....don't really listen to BS enough to throw that kind of $$ around chasing minor sound quality differences. Back and forth....On my system the BB sounds just fine, but I hope to upgrade soon and wonder...

 

NO YOU SHOULD NOT! I can't understand all this talk about Castle remasters here now that we have the Black Box - they were rather good compared to other crap Castle remasters of the time (Uriah Heep, Nazareth) that gave Castle that horrible reputation as the label that butchers any remastering but they don't even come close to the Black Box - it's night and day difference! Black Box has some minor problems on Vol IV but that's it. I compared all my Sabbath albums and gladly traded Castles.

 

Thank you. Listening to "Paranoid" right now it sounds sweet. I'll "hold what I got" and be done with it.

 

I think we'll just have to agree to differ. IMHO, the Castle remastered Paranoid is much better than the Black Box, and that includes cover presentation and sound. The others, I can't remember, as I sold them off before the BB arrived, so I suspect the differences weren't as obvious as for Paranoid, which I re-bought. Listen to Paranoid on headphones for a comparison, the BB (or the WB for that matter) is not good.

 

I think the important thing is, if BB sounds fine to you on your system, don't sweat it. You can drive yourself crazy obsessing over what everyone here would approve of in regard to the best version of....etc,. Your ears should be the final judge.

 

I agree, although I'm on the other end of the dilemma. I've got the Castle LP replica box set, and I won't get Black Box unless it magically drops into my lap for less than what yourmusic.com sells it for. To my ears the Castle CD's sound fine, especially for the very early albums which are my faves anyway.

However, if you want a vinyl alternative on a budget, I echo apesmu and recommend that you check out some of the NEMS LP reissues. It's a good, cost effective way to get Sabbath's UK masters on LP, and there's no question of aggressive EQ, compression or maximization. Also, none of the questionable sources that characterize the Earmark reissues.

Of course, if you have the financial fortitude to score the Vertigo LP's, go for it!

 

Roland,

Well, here's the thing: The versions I am talking about as regards the s/t album are the early ones w/ the Live At Last bonus track. So, there may be later versions w/o the bonus track and I don't know if they differ. All I can tell you is that I have a Japan pressed and French pressed version of the s/t album and they sound excatly the same, have the same TT, and are clearly from the same mastering, but these are the early issues WITH the bonus track.

As far as MoR. The early Castle I had was one W/O the bonus track. Dolby was not decoded properly or something. Sounded NRd! The hiss on "Solitude" wasn't right. Something is very wrong with that CD. But there may be an earlier version W/ the bonus track that differs. Make sense?

Those 23PD Japan first pressed Vertigos are probably wonderful, but to get the first 10 albums in that format would easily run about $1500-$2000, because the eBay prices on them are insane.

 

It's the same as my disc, and I'll admit that the sample you posted is not the worst offender on this disc..."Evil Woman" even less so. But the sample I posted is also from the Castle remaster, which you accurately described as "a bit harsh and tinny". The louder parts of that disc in general sound like that: it's that saturated effect that bothers me, but I don't know if that's compression or what.

The only other Sabbath I have on CD is the Creative Sounds MoR and the WB of Vol. 4, so I have a long way to go.

 

O.k., Jeff, thanks for clarifying that one.

By the way, I think the earlier versions are the ones w/o the bonus track, but I could be wrong.

How would you compare the sound of MoR between the original Castle and the US WB? Which one of these two did you like better?

Roland

 

I just read somewhere that this 4-CD set supposedly uses the Castle remastering.

If that is the case, then I can only say that the Castle remasters apparently are not very good. I definitely did not like the sound on the box "Under The Wheels Of Confusion: 1970-1987".

The sound on the box set is quite harsh in my opinion and the original Castles are much superior to the sound of this box set.

Can somebody confirm which mastering was used for this box set?

Roland