Black Sabbath - CD Comparisons

Despite (occasional) brightness (I'm not a Bill Inglot fan at all) black box remasters blow away every other CD version in my book. I heard Vertigos and had all Castle remasters (still have the post Ozzy era) and they don't even come close. Sure some tracks on Vol 4 (Tommorow's Dream, Snowblind) do sound awful but that's all that is bad about it. Just compare Black Box and Castle Technical Ecstasy and tell me that BB CD doesn't run circles around Castle one. I personaly decided to keep Castle Vol 4 for a good sounding TD and Snowblind and Black Box for everything else.

P.S.
Funny when Black Box came out everybody was raving about the sound and then the tide changed and suddenly it started to suck: some folks here are kinda sensual to dominating opinion. No offence, please!

 

I suspect some people either withhold their opinion because they feel they can't hear what the more dominant members can and feel like a cloth ear if they admit it (e.g. the UD1/UD2 thread), or possibly with newer releases, want to be sure of what they are hearing before they comment.
I suggest that the Castle Paranoid sounds very good and I like it better than the BB version (I have listened extensively to both). Each to his own preferences.
Wicked World (from Black Sabbath) sounds MUCHO better on the Black Box - it really sounds poor on the Castle.

 

Does "We Sold Our Soul For Rock n Roll" feature the same sound on its tracks as the individual WB cd's? That's the only Sabbath I have on cd at this time.

 

I agree that something went wrong on the Castle _Technical Ecstasy_. But I bet the original WB CD or the Vertigo would smoke the sound on Black Box. Inglot's/Hersch's EQ settings just don't work for me. At least from the Yes and Sabbath remasterings I've heard. Still, I agree the Black Box TE sounds more like the album I remember hearing on cassette many, many times.

 

Well, I have the original WB CD of the first album. I bet if I compared the orignal WB version of "Wicked World" would beat the Rhino. I'll have to see.

 

Probably. Although they may have had a tape used to make the original album so, theoretically, it could vary slightly. But I doubt there'd be much difference.

 

Agree on Inglot's EQ. Don't like the one Rhino Yes CD I have and I don't plan to buy the rest. However it;s much more powerful and clear/detailed sound that sold me on Black Box. Plus I can cure the brightness on Black Box (if necessary) just be decreasing the treble by -1 on my pre. Tried it - it works on every track, except for Tommorow's Dream, which is sure ruined beyond repair.
Yet the previous CDs were pretty muddy, even the Castles. And don't even get me started on Vertigos - I heard so many times that they are the definitive Sabbath CD yet when I got myself (quite for $$) Sabotage and Heaven and Hell they turned out to be nice, flat transfers of 3rd or 4th generation tapes!

:thumbsdn:

 

I know this thread is geared towards digital Sabbath comparisons, but what about the Earmark vinyl reissues? How do they compare to Black Box and/or the Castle remasters? I'm not exactly an expert on these sorts of things, but was digital processing involved to reproduce the Earmarks or are they purely analog?

 

i just came back from Amoeba SF empty-handed due to some confusion on my part. i saw some remastered Black Sabbath CDs which looked the same as the 1996 Castle remasters that i'm familiar with. i'm pretty sure that the back cover artwork was identical in terms of font and layout. however, instead of copyright Castle 1996, it was Sanctuary 2004. also, these did not come in slipcases. are these basically the same CDs, same mastering, just re-released? help! thanks.

 

Sanctuary just reissued the titles. They are the same. CD UNIVERSE is doing Vol. 4 for $10 right now:

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=6737809&style=music&cart=262350973

 

Oh, and one more thing as far as the Castles: Only _Master Of Reality_ came in a slipcase. Castle also issued mini lp CDs, but that's another matter.

 

ah, thanks for the info. my castle Master of Reality indeed has a slipcase, whereas my Castle Black Sabbath does not, but since i bought the latter used, i was under the impression that it had been lost/forgotten/thrown out by the seller.

 

Trying to sort this out. Please correct me if this is not correct:

So, at this point, taking only the WB, Rhino BB and '96 Castles (which are the same as the '04 Sanctuarys) into account, the consensus for the CDs is:

The '96 Castle/'04 Sanctuarys of MoR and Vol. 4 are much better than WB (and BB). Of the others either the WB is the best, or there has been no comparison (in which case the WBs are assumed to be the best). At least one member prefers the Rhino BB to all other versions.

 

TMan, it's not that simple - when Black Box came out most people here were raving about the sound. Just search the archives. Not a single person outside this board (I mean among my audiophile friends) prefers the Castles to BB CDs. I personaly don't think Castles are that bad (compared to the other remasters on Castle from the same period Sabbath was their best effort) but they don't have a good rep by any means.

 

i don't know, antonkk. i haven't done a tally, but i've searched the archives for "Black Sabbath" numerous times and my impression is that people have been split pretty evenly on the Black Box (as well as the Symptom of the Universe 2xcd, which i believe was also done by inglot/hersch). the mastering is pretty much what you'd expect from the inglot/hersch team of the past few years. it comes down to whether or not you like that sound. some people find the EQ a bit too bright, and their work definitely yields louder CDs on account of some limiting. but they don't use any noise reduction or compression so far as i can tell.

i think that these albums have to be considered on a case-by-case basis. the Black Box isn't consistently excellent, but neither are the Castles or the WBs.

TMan, this has been posted numerous times, but just in case you missed it:
http://users3.ev1.net/~sleeping96/sv06.htm

this page is most useful for detailing anomalies such as drop-outs (which seems to be the major problem with some of the castles).

 

I was basing that on just this thread (missed the original BB discussions - maybe I'll take a look). I'm not going to be getting the box though, just filling out the collection, so for me personally it's probably between the WBs or Castles, unless Rhino released the BB versions seperately.

 

yeah I looked at that - as you say it is more for anomolies and less descriptive of the sound, but that guy seems to jibe w/Jeff on MoR and Vol 4 (Castles are better). He uses "crisp" as his sole description of the sound, if I recall, which isn't all that helpful. (Definititely will put more faith in hoffmanites for the sound qual. ).

 

The thing is, I can speak of Cds where I have *actually* sat and listened and compared. I am not going to say," Well, I recall..."

My recent comparisons of Vol. 4, again:

Castle/Victor Japan mini lp - the exact same and the best.
WB - terrible.
BB - terrible.

And I am not a fan of anything that could ever be described as "crisp." So take that into account. The Castle _Vol. 4_ is warm and has a load of midrange that sounds natural and inviting. The WB sounds like it was made from a fourth generation cassette dubbed from an LP mix that was heavily EQd to be rolled to vinyl. The BB _Vol.4_ is somewhat like the Castle only further EQd to the point of crispy fried digital earbleed. The drums sound tinny and shrill. Terrible. There is no comparison, whatsoever, IMO. The Castle is the clear winner. Again, I'm only discussing _Vol. 4_ as I have just recently put this one to the test.

 

thanks for the follow-up. I have the WB editions for all the BS CDs that I have. I always thought Vol. 4 sounded 'lo-fi' or something, and just assumed that's the way it was mastered (never having heard the vinyl).

 

One question Jeff - re: Vol. 4 - does the Victor Japan mini-LP have the channels reversed lik the castle or is it the same remastering without the channels reversed?

 

i received the 1996 Castle remastering of Vol 4 in the mail today. i took a casual listen and so far i dig it (although there is a nasty sound glitch in the left channel in the first song, just as detailed on the link i posted above). i'll have to spend more time with it, but channel reversals and glitches aside, it does strike me as a happy medium between the WB and the Rhino sound-wise.

thought i'd post some visual comparisons as i know some of you like that sort of thing. of course, you should use your ears first and foremost, but the waveforms can be instructive to a point. from top to bottom, these are: Warner Bros. CD, 1996 Castle CD, and 2004 Rhino Black Box CD. the song is "Tomorrow's Dream."

 

I vouched for the Rhino black box set - I haven't changed my thoughts on that for what it is - its pretty good, at least, I prefer it over the WB. HOWEVER.... I just came into one of the '96 Castle releases (1st album) and know what? I'm digging it. I think I'm gonna search for more of these - it definitely has a 'generation higher' sound to me but I need to sit down and give them all a listen. I am leaning towards the Castle now at this point. We'll see, I have to rule out the 'new toy' factor.

 

Okay, time to resurrect this thread.

Many have asked about how the Vertigo CDs compare, well, I have just listened to samples from a CDR made for me and concluded the following:

Japanese Vertigo - flat transfers
German Vertigo - Bass is boosted ridiculously.

In addition, as far as the original WB CDs are concerned, sorry, but the first five albums all come from strangely EQd tapes for vinyl, IMO. Starting at _Sabotage_ they are great, but before that, forget it. If you are living with those you are missing out on midrange and bottom end galore.

I'll start by dealing with my search to find the best digital recording of the first album.

Here are five samples of "The Wizard." Please note the following:

1. I'm not bothering with Black Box. The Rhinos are no good, IMO.

2. As far as Japanese mini lp CDs, the Teichiku and Victor use the Castle (1996) mastering. The Teichiku came out great and sounds the same. Something went wrong on the Victor.

Okay, here we go. I'll put my personal opinions next to each.

Clips from "The Wizard"...

Japanese Vertigo (SUPERB!):

http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1IYE3J3LT0XBY09G2NJP3Z5RWC

Warner Bros (a bit too crispy - too much high end, not enough midrange):

http://s12.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=257QCOAJCOZS33RYP7DNKPFORV

Castle Remaster - 1996 from master tapes (a bit loud and a bit bassy but very nice and warm midrange):
http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3MQNQDVKC7H600H049B2BKPZOD

West German Vertigo (bass goosed way too much):

http://s9.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0EHKQL7R9HGG13MCZCKTV5LBH6

Castle (not remastered - w/ bonus live track from Live At Last) NELCD 6002. Sort of between the WB and the Japanese Vertigo. This is probably second behind the Japanese Vertigo.

http://s17.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=08ZL6P0NIFTPI3O2ZDIY4Z9NJJ

 

Oh, and one other thing. Didn't I read that there was no WG Vertigo of SBS? Well, I have a sample from it. It exists.

But don't bother with the WG Vertigos.

 

And moving on to Technical Ecstasy.

I think it's generally agreed the Castle remaster of this one was butchered beyond recognition, and I don't have it to sample from anyhow.

So...

Here is a clip from "Back Street Kids."

Warner Bros

http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3PXG6POYY0MB52P374EAD1UUBQ

WG Vertigo (can you say smiley-face EQ?)

http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=07ZLEAOC9IN6Z3S123GD8SVEOS