Black Sabbath - CD Comparisons

Bright and harsh are the first 2 words that come to mind. Way too much compression for volume enhancement and no breath of life whatsoever a la digital workstation. The WB isn't perfect, but at least the analog life is still in it.

When you look at imagnrywar's wave files the Castle remaster sounds the way the Rhino looks to me. The other Castle (imagnrywar's wave), which I have suspicians that it might be the 198? version as opposed to the remaster, appears like something Steve may have done. Increased overall volume, but without clipping at all.

 

the castle waveform i posted was the 1996 remaster which came in a jewel case w/ slipcase. never heard any of the older castles.

 

Wow, certainly looks like a good mastering from your wave, but it sure didn't translate that way to my ears. There must be something that the wave-files are not picking up and conveying as opposed to the listening end result. Hopefully I will be able to hear an original Vertigo pressing one of these days to hear how it stacks up againt the WB. Thanks for posting imagnrywar.

 

Well, as for the s/t album, I have a bit more info:

Black Sabbath (s/t):

Victor Japan mini lp (Castle remaster) - A BIT MUDDY

Teichiku Japan mini lp (Castle remaster) - MIND BOGGLING - WARM, TRULY AMAZING. Not harsh at ALL. Listening to "Behind The Wall Of Sleep" is a treat. Superb sound!

WB Original - Excellent. Quite different and brighter. Almost sounds like WB used an Lp cutting tape? I actually don't think this is as good as the Teichiku Japan, which I hope to soon compare to the '96 Castle remaster and find is the same.

Victor Japan continues to be a bit of a trip, IMO, and their Sabbath issues are no exception so far. All their mini lp CDs are licensed from Castle so wouldn't they get DAT tapes/CDRs of the remasters? Well, their s/t is utterly blown away by the Teichiku Japan issue of the s/t. And their issue of SBS sounds heavily EQd and nothing like the '96 Castle remaster. It's actually kind of an interesting sound, but just bizarre in comparison. Again, the only way I can describe it is that it is a bit like listening to the album on the radio might sound. Very strange.

The Rhino box is pretty good. I really don't have a problem with it except that the mastering is hot.

A few months ago, a collector sent me cdr samples of some of the German Vertigo issues, which I will soon check out. CDR samples may not be the best way to go, but those issues are hard to find.

 

I have been doing a few more comparisons between the 2 versions of Paranoid available to me - the latest UK Castle mini-LP and the Black Box (BB). The tape faults remaining in the BB's War Pigs (the rest of the album appears to be OK) are:1. there appears to be a short drop out in the right channel at 0:05 - it makes the guitar riff sound as if pause has been hit momentarily (compared with the Castle version).
2. some treble loss in the right channel between 0:36 and 0:38.
3. Ozzie's voice throughout sounds as if it is being rapidly panned very slightly left and right continually, compared with the very stable, slightly-right-of-centre vocals on the Castle.
4. some level irregularities in the right channel around 3:00 to 3:08 cause the guitar to jump in volume several times.
I remember these faults from the US Warners vinyl (even as far back as the 70s) and CD, although there have been mucho corrections - the Warners right channel was much more intermittent originally and the Rhino engineers have really polished it up to sound much better than the Warners original. But, make no mistake, the tape used has more faults than the Castle. The jewel case has photos of the master tape box in the booklet, lending more credence (without definite proof) that the original Vertigo UK master tape was used for the latest Castle series, while the faulty Warners copy tape was used for the BB.
Now, as for noise reduction, it sounds to me like the Castle uses more than the Rhino BB, allowing better dynamics in the BB to shine through, despite the higher generation tape used. There is also a more natural bass sound. The BB is brighter, bassier and louder than the Castle also.
Please note that this comparison was done through a Stax headphone system - the faults are much less obvious on speakers.
I prefer the Castle cover (despite creases from crappy manufacturing - possibly hand folding and glueing??- on mine) to the truncated picture with washed out colours in the BB version.
I'm keeping both versions.
Aren't Ozzie's vocals superb? None of the album is rocket science, but he really sings well. His vocals on Changes on "Volume 4" is also great - I love torturing the kids by singing along to it at top volume - maybe this is a little unusual?

 

Title Comparison Site

Here's a nifty (pre Rhino's Black Box, though) comparison of WB and Castle CD reissues for Sabbath...


http://users3.ev1.net/~sleeping96/sv06.htm

 

War Pigs from Castle UK remaster (mini LP sleeve) Not much maximisation in evidence here.

 

War Pigs BB. There is some maximisation evident, but not unbelievably bad.

 

John,

Thanks for these and for your previous post on the 20th that I somehow missed until yesterday.

Yeah, BB is cranked. But there isn't a hint of NR and I think it's pretty good. The original WB flat transfers are probably better in many cases though. I still have to do more extensive comparisons of the Sabbath catalog. Needless to say, it isn't easy to figure out.

 

Are there West German and/or Japanese WB BS CD's. Or, are The WB's CD's all pressed in the U.S.?
Thanks.

 

Don't know about the W. German, but there's definitely the Japan WB's.

 

Yes, there are West German Vertigos. I have a cdr with samples from them which I have yet to test but a cdr isn't as good as the real deal. Still, it might give some insight.

 

Please do, Jeff.
I recently fell in luv with The W.G. Vertigo Dire Straits: Making Movies. It may just be the 'swirl', however I am mesmerized by the sound!

 

After seeing the waveform of different versions now I understand because always preferred the original Warner Bros albums

 

i have a copy of paranoid that i bought ages ago...
cant remember what label...but along the top of the cover there is a strip that says
premium masters

in my opinion..it sounds awful.....!! like there is crackling or some rubbish that comes in
when there is a lot going on in a track...
have heard better on vinyl (friends vertigo swirl)
and cd (the copys with the picture on the cover....on the spine)


sorry i cant remember the labels...

 

More updates for this thread. Today I compared _Vol. 4:

WB
Castle
Victor Japan mini lp CD
Rhino

The Castle is the same as the Victor Japan mini lp CD. This is great because the mini lp is a fantastic reproduction of the original Lp packaging, and it uses the same mastering as the Castle, which is FAR AND AWAY superior to the others.

ONE PROBLEM!!

The Castle reverses channels! In checking an old thread that Michael started one can determine that the Castle is wrong:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=31707

But the sound on the Castle is so much richer and deeper than the WB it is ridiculous. The WB CD (and folks here that know me know that I tend to prefer flat transfered, older CDs) is just not good at all. They must have had a tape EQd for Lp transfer. "Under The Sun" is the worst. It sounds utterly thin and pathetic on the Warner CD. The Castle sounds much, much better through and through. It adds a lot of nice midrange without getting too crisp.

The Rhino is just a joke. I've no idea how anyone in their right mind could master music this way and think it sounds right. Interestingly, it sounds *okay* on "Wheels Of Confusion," but when "Tomorrow's Dream" kicks in it is digital tin on the drum sound. Terrible.

As far as NR, I don't think any version has any. The Castle CD has about the same amount of hiss on "FX" as the WB CD. The Rhino has even more hiss but it is, of course, louder and more EQd.

So the Castle is the winner here. I'll probably keep the Victor Japan version for the great packaging. Too bad the channels are reversed. That is a drag.

 

I just got my Master Of Reality UK Castle '96 remaster. It came in a standard jewel case. Also, I have the WB MOR purchased a year or two ago from BMG music service.. whatever version that is.

The WB version was my first time listening to this classic album and right away I suspected something wasn't right (this was pre-Hoffman website days for me... reading nothing about mastering stuff). It sounded heavily veiled like winter comforters thrown over each speaker-- seriously. I bought Symptoms of The Universe next and definitely more clearer... but, almost too crisp/bright sounding. I had the Black Box on my list next and then started reading the Hoffman site. Got scared away from that. Recommendation was Castle UK remaster for this title so I tried it.

And... it just sounds superior over my WB copy and I prefer it over the cuts from the Symptoms Set. Castle is not overly bright, has better low-mid punch and doesn't sound heavily veiled like the WB.

Maybe my WB copy is defective, but, I won't forget the feeling of dismay.. thinking it was going to sound like my WB Paranoid... not even close.

My next purchase will probably be the S/T and SBS via BMG... (WB version). Others here say those sound great on WB... so, I'll give it a go.

 

I'm pretty sure the Castle version of the s/t beats the WB. I have the Teichuku Japan mini lp version (which was licensed from Castle) and it is much warmer and has more midrange. The WB is very good, but a bit crisp. Again, it sounds like maybe they just didn't have as good of a tape.

As for your MoR story: Can you check something for me? On the WB version and the Castle version, listen to "Solitude" and see how much hiss is present. I'm wondering if the WB CD is from a source that is messed up, because of the way the sound has been described. You see, I heard an early version of MoR on Castle (pre-remaster) and it sounded the same way. Very, very dull, and like there was a veil over the sound. When I checked "Solitude" that version was almost hissless! Obviously noise gated or something! The other *possibility* is that at some point someone ran a tape that was *not* in dolby and played it back *in* dolby for the transfer. I'm not sure if this kind of thing happens, but it occured to me as one way a recording might sound like that.

 

the Castle sounds good, except for Wicked World. does anyone know what could have happened with that one track? it just sounds weird.

 

interesting that you mentioned this particular song. i only have the Warner and the Black Box CDs, and i prefer the Warner largely because i think that opening of "Under the Sun" sounds so much better on it! much crunchier, punchier to these ears, whereas the Black Box is louder but actually lacks clarity and impact by comparison. now i'm curious about the Castle. i'll have to pick it up one of these days.

 

Trust me, the Castle _Vol. 4_ is amazing. _Vol. 4_ is one of my all time favorite albums by anyone, and I really wish Castle hadn't reversed the channels, but their mastering just wipes the floor with WB CD. Wait until you hear "Tomorrow's Dream" on the Castle version! InSANE!

 

Trying to adjust for the difference in volume (Castle RM is a bit louder), I believe the Castle RM has somewhat more hiss on Solitude. I noticed the WB back says Into The Void is 3:08 and Solitude is 8:08. Into The Void runs around 6:09... Also the WB booklet says CDD Pre-mastering by WCI Record Group.. if that means anything.

IMO, the Castle RM is the best I've heard so far. It doesn't sound veiled at all, however, it does sound like there's some noise reduction going on.

 

Well, keep in mind that "Wicked World" was the B-side to "Evil Woman" and these tracks were recorded at a session that predated those of the first album. It always sounded different.

 

Hmmm...well, I'll have to pick up the WB CD again one day to compare, but my suspicion is that something went wrong with certain issues of MoR on CD. Although I've read here that the original Vertigo vinyl smokes the WB greenie, but I still think something is wrong with certain digital issues of MoR.

Thanks for checking!

Cheers!

 

True, but as the original poster pointed out, there really does seem to be something wrong with the sound. As if a cassette was used for the mastering or something. I don't recall it being so obviously inferior sounding on the WB LP I had.