Best Sounding digital Beatles singles comp?

RZangpo2 did his critical listening using a very simple but ingenious method. He used the balance knob on his stereo and did a bit of A/B comparisons of all the tracks. I did something less scientific. I made WAV files (no compression was used) of all the left channels of the first 8 singles (through I Feel Fine) and listened to them all the way through on my iPod a few times with my inner ear headphones. I noticed a few that I didn't like, so I made WAV files of the right channels of those. I listened to it a few times again (all the way through), and I was satisfied with the results. Ron's method was probably much better, but in the end we agreed on all our decisions.

Again, I want to emphasize that Ron and I have been using the term "out of phase" or OOP very loosely. Really what we mean is general phase problems. And in fact the first few CD singles are not out of phase as has been stated by Steve and others. In order for them to be out of phase they would have had to be folded down to mono. It is not possible to hear the swishy sound of the tape machine when they are still technically stereo. However it is clear that they were both mastered improperly and that there are phase issues with all but She Loves You/I'll Get You.

As far as the first four CD's, I only did a test on With the Beatles. The OOP test showed that there was a tremendous amount of sound left over, meaning very severe phase issues. I tried to adjust the volume on one channel to see if it would help, but it only made it worse. I did state in my earlier post that I do not hear any loss of the top end or any swishy sounds, so it would not have been out of phase if it had been folded down, but clearly the sound was compromised a great deal, IMO of course.

Like I said earlier we have been using the term "out of phase" very loosely; so no, the left over sound does not mean that the signal remaining is out of phase. In fact none of them are out of phase, because the engineer would have had to fold it down for it to be out of phase. Ron and I have found the same general issues with each single, so I would assume that the test performed by any sound editor would yield very similar results. For example on She Loves You both Ron and I found that there was no sound left over.

I don't know about the Capitol box set. My take on that is that Dexter did his number on the tapes, so there is not much to be done for those.

 

That is not correct. The only CD that was not mastered directly from the master tapes was Sgt. Pepper.

 

Thanks for your responses Another Side! I still have a lot of questions though. Why is it that She Loves You/I'll Get You, the only true mono mix of the first 8 singles...sounds worse than any of them??? It was always the worst sounding single by the Beatles. I just don't see how this phase issue is so obvious that no one other than you and Ron, including Steve, has chimed in with their opinions. Surely Steve would know if this anomaly existed and was perhaps the cause for the relative poor sound. I know you have both worked extremely hard on this, but can sound editing software actually enhance the sound of these digital mixes? When you make such a mix, does the corresponding CDR sound "better" than the released disc?

As for Derek....the official Cd's were all mixed from the master tapes....I have no knowledge that Sgt. Pepper used a sub-master as mentioned by Another Side. By the way Mr. Side, where did you read about this ? My Record Collector magazine from 1987 goes into great length about how the CD release was assembled...in fact, the article states that the masters WERE used and that they were all in fantastic condition!!! Barrett had access to the same masters yet his cassette reference tapes sound better than the EMI official releases and the Anthology outtakes? The cassettes, at best, would have a signal-to-noise ratio of 85%, probably less, yet they are quiet, have more dynamic range and sound better (his trial mixes also sound superior to the original Martin mixes in many cases)....something isn't right here. Cheers, Ron

 

First of all, see my post #93 above. To recap briefly: if a recording is mono, but mastered in stereo (as is the case with all the Beatles mono CDs), then the stereo channels should cancel completely when OOPS'ed. If they don't, this means either that the channels are out of phase with each other, or that one channel is louder than the other. The first is a timing error, the second is an amplitude error. In either case, the sound can be improved by eliminating one of the channels, which is what a.s. and I have done.

I remind you that the recordings we are discussing were originally mono. No phase or loudness errors could have been introduced in the original recording, because there was only one channel. Such errors can only be introduced by splitting the original mono track into separate L + R channels, something that never should have been done IMO.

About picking the better sounding channel. Actually, I did not use my balance knob as a.s. describes; I don't have one. Instead, I swapped leads so that I listened to each channel in turn over the same speaker. This eliminated any variables due to differences between the two speakers, or differences in the way each speaker interacts with the room.

You can check out my system under my profile. Briefly, for CD playback, the chain is Sony SCD-777ES --> Plinius 9200 integrated --> Harbeth Compact 7ES-2. (If you haven't heard of Harbeth, the C7 is a domestic version of the monitors they used to make for the BBC.) I think that's pretty accurate. Personally, I am confident that the differences I heard are what's on the CD. And FWIW, a.s.'s observations match mine. But of course, on your system, in your room, you may reach different conclusions. YMMV!

(I did not do any critical listening through my computer soundcard, or on headphones. I never do.)

I haven't done these tests on the first four albums. I leave the field to those of you who have. In general, I will say that there's no need to speculate or theorize about any of this. We've explained how we did the OOPS test and listening comparisons, and how we fixed the problems we found. Anyone else can do the same and listen for themselves! Speaking only for myself, I found that fixing the tracks improved the sound, so that's how I did my comp. Again, YMMV!

 

I don't know for sure, but my guess is that in this particular case the engineer hit the mono button creating a slightly out of phase sound. According to Steve this single IS out of phase, and his ears are better trained than mine. It isn't surprising to me that it would sound worse if the mono button was in fact pressed, because I folded down a number of the singles and then A/B'ed the result with the original track and they all sounded very noticeably worse.

Well in my opinion it's wasn't that obvious that the phase issues were ONE of the causes of the subpar sound. After all Ron and I discovered this purely by accident. I was looking for what I thought was evidence of the singles being "out of phase" without realizing that I didn't fully understand what that was, and that you would not find evidence of it with a sound editor. What I found instead, after being set straight by Steve, was that the singles could not be out of phase (since they were still technically still stereo), but they DID in fact have phase issues.

In our mind, since Steve had said that he has on numerous occassions ran the mono tape through the stereo machine, and then compared the two channels to pick the best one, it seemed we were doing the same thing. Or in Ron's words, it was not too late to fix the problem. If the engineer had pressed the mono button, then it would be too late.

I would not call it a mix, but It does in fact sound better. Listen for yourself here. I don't have enough storage space to put up the fold down, but it is in fact quite horrible when compared to the original track. Both the right channel and the left sound better than the original track, but we ended up picking the left channel, since it has less distortion.

That has been said by many people on this forum including Steve, and it has never been questioned. So I have taken it as fact.

 

I agree with a.s.'s responses. As for SLY/IGY, I'll listen again. It may be that a needle drop would be a better choice there.

As to why no one noticed this before, I'd say it's because no one looked! Steve has commented on some of the singles being OOP, but the way he described the problem makes it pretty obvious that he picked it up by listening (using his golden ears, of course ). He assumed that the OOP stereo tracks had been folded back to mono, making the problem irreparable (as may be the case with SLY/IGY). A.s. and I found that this was not the case. In fact, the problem can be repaired (except for that one track), and repairing it does seem to improve the sound.

Again, try it for yourself and see! As for whether the CD-R sounds better, yes, it does. As a.s. points out, there is no "remixing" or digital manipulation of the signal going on. I agree that such things can degrade sound quality, but we're not doing that here. What I do is make an error-free rip using CDParanoia; eliminate one channel; then burn the resulting mono file back to CD-R. Nothing on the remaining channel has been changed. Basically, the result is equivalent to disconnecting one of your speakers, but it's easier this way.

 

Excellent responses by you both. I commend you for explaining things so clearly and consisely. I'll try the CDParanoia editing, sounds simple enough to use and if it makes the resulting CDR comp sound better....than WAHOOO!!! By the way, its engineer Mike Jarrett who claims that only master tapes were used...and would be used on Cd's not yet released as of June 1987...Magical Mystery Tour, The Beatles, Yellow Submarine, Let it Be and Abbey Road. He also experiemented with running the master tapes through the original machines that were used on the sessions, but determined that the best sound (subjective I know) came from using modern machines with 2-track heads (too bad they didn't adjust the azimuth properly). A portion of the interview June 1987, Issue 94...

Record Collector: When you were mastering the Cd's...(up to and including Pepper), did you play with the sound of the original tape, to add equalisation or compression?[/I]

Jarrett: I referred to the original documentation to see what was done in the Sixties. I've had a couple of years' experience as a cutting engineer (THAT'S ALL!!!) so I knew what changes had been made for purely technical reasons and what had been done for artistic reasons, so I hope I managed to get the best from the tapes.

Record Collector: How have the Master Tapes stood up over the years?[/I]

Jarrett: Very well indeed. We do store our master tapes exceptionally carefully. They're sealed in plastic bags and then sealed again in tins, and kept in a special vault which has specific temperature and humidity. I did have a couple of heart-stopping moments when some of the joins fell apart, but i just rejoined them with modern editing tape.

The entire article is filled with material we all still discuss today...the mono/stereo debate of the first 4...the remixing of Help and Rubber Soul (Jarrett prepared digital stereo master tapes for CD production transferring the 4-track tape onto a digital multi-track machine....the remixes [sorry Steve, those are Mike Jarrett's words] were then done by Martin from the digital tapes...not the original analogue), that the Japanese Abbey Road CD from 1983 is terrible and that by 1987 new digital technology has progressed leaps and bounds and that EMI is confident that the new version will be superior....oh my Now 18 years later, with technology clearly superior we still have these same Cd's...something very bad happened within EMI/Apple since those quaint ol' days. Ron

 

Ron, that's is the most depressing thing I've read all year.

But thanks for posting that. The funny thing is they started with the right idea: releasing the mono mixes. They thought about running the tape through a mono machine or even a tube machine, but no they decided to go with a modern machine. Plus apparently they made digital dubs for some unexplainable reason. And to top it all off the azimuth on the machine was way off when they created the digital dub. It all went downhill from there.

 

Unfortunately, it gets worse. Another EMI exec Mike Heatley, is also questioned why they released the first 4 in mono, why Help and Rubber Soul were remixed...and why Martin didn't correct the terrible stereo mixing of Rubber Soul when he had the chance. Apparently, it was ok to add reverb and change the soundstage some...but was considered heresy to change the mixes because the Beatles themselves approved them back in '65. Well we all know the Beatles didn't even attend stereo mixing sessions until Revolver...so why perpetuate the myth that they would be upset with any meddling...even if it "improved" the songs themselves.

Nick Piercey and Peter Doggett from Record Collector really get on his case too.... Sample: Why has it taken so long for EMI to release the Beatles catalogue on CD? Answer: The main reason has been a shortage of pressing facilities. Can you believe that one???? Want another...Can we assume then that stereo versions of A Hard Day's Night and Beatles For Sale will be released in the fullness of time? Answer: Nothing is planned at the moment, but that's not to say that the situation won't change in the future. As I say, we hope to make everyone happy eventually.

Another answer given by Mr. Heatley...."we still have to consider whether releases like Live At The Hollywood Bowl. Whether that comes out on CD depends on how the CD market develops" Ummm, well considering it's been the dominant market for close to 20 years...where the hell is that release??? Funny enough, he doubts the BBC sesions or alternate tapes will ever be issued. Ron

 

I nominate "Best Sounding Digital Beatles Singles Comp" the best SH Hoffman thread - Music category - for 2005. Over 100 posts and not one lint of politics (so far).

 

I compared the singles box version of SLY with Ebbetts' needle drop. You're right, the singles box version does sound lousy, but the needle drop is not much better. Steve has said that some of the '70s recut 45s were mastered OOP; perhaps this is one of them. Anyone have the original 45? A needle drop of the original may be the best option here.

P.S. Thanks, jamesmaya! Political lint really bugs me.

 

What an informative thread regarding all the audio research on the Beatles. Now that I've read through all the posts. and my brain/eyes are reeling, tell me...where can I get a copy of the infamousr Dr. Ebbetts' needle drops?

 

Can't answer that question on this forum. PM me.

 

I swear to God my Swan 45 of She Loves You/I'll Get You sounds better than anything I've heard so far. More dynamics, louder, and little distortion...too bad its 41 years old and was played to death...a mint copy would be awesome to hear. Ron

 

Perhaps you have better sources, but I've been collecting Beatles music for over 35 years. To the best of my recollection all of the CD's (except for the digitally remixed Help & Rubber Soul)were mastered from the EQ'd LP PRESSING masters, not the mixed SESSION masters as they should have been. Steve Hoffman was the first source for the story that Sgt. Pepper was from a Safety Copy. His ears, and my ears tell me that incorrect masters were used, with the exceptions of Help and Rubber Soul, which were remixed.

Derek

 

The fact that Barrett's cassette's sound so good (better?) should tell you that the official CD's are NOT the Session masters for the albums, but the LP masters (and perhaps safety copies of some of those).

Derek

 

Well, I obviously have not heard the masters and I was not there at EMI, but Steve has said repeatedly that all of the Beatles' CD's were mastered from the master tapes (with the exception of Pepper). The mastering engineer at EMI, Mike Jarrett - who mastered all of the Beatles' CD's, has stated the exact same thing. Furthermore, as far as I know EMI did not make LP pressings masters (with the possible exception of Please Please Me), all of the EQ and compression was either added when the master was created or when the LP's were cut (Steve please correct me if i'm wrong about that). So even though I hear the exact same thing you hear when listening to the CD's the poor sound quality is not a result of masters not being used to create the CD's.

 

Wait a second....I just mentioned that Mike Jarrett himself said in 1987 that all the CD's up to and including Pepper...were taken from the mastertapes. Where was he quoted as saying a "safety" master was used? I'm not denying this was the case, but I'd be surprised he answered this both ways. Ron

 

I've just compared my three 7" singles of Please Please Me....

1976
1982
Picture disc....

To me the picture disc sounds best and is the least compressed of the three.

For completest sake , you should head to the 1982 recut (red label), because whoever cut that didn't fade the tape down at the end so a good couple of seconds of guitar amp noise is present after the song has finished!

 

In one of the historical threads on the Beatles CD's, Steve posted that he thought that Sgt. Pepper was made from a Safety Copy of the master tape. No quotes from Jarrett I'm aware of mention it.

Derek

 

I still have my doubts. The EMI tape boxes show dubs going all over the place, and one of the "master tapes" shows one of the tracks (I forget just which one it was at the moment) being replaced from a safety copy after somebody damaged the original. I'll check a few of my sources to see if I can find any relevant info. If it turns out that Jarrett managed to make that Beatles CD mess with the real master tapes, then he ought to be tarred and feathered. It's almost like he was deliberately trying to make them sound crappy.

Derek

 

In another thread Steve recommended some EQ that I could use to "fix" I'll Get You. So I went back to the three sources for this song: the CD singles box, Past Masters I, and the Dr. Ebbetts needle drop . It turns out that I'll Get You is not in real mono on Past Masters I. So I decided to pick one channel at random and listen to all three versions back to back. My first impression is that the Dr. Ebbetts has a more clear sound to the vocals but is very bright in its sound; also towards the end there is some distortion. The CD singles version, which is real mono, sounds OK but nothing to write home about. The "left channel" version of Past Masters is probably my choice for the best overall. We're still not talking about great mastering, but this will probably the best we can do.

 

I know you're just expressing your frustration, but Mike Jarrett passed away some years ago.

 

Thanks, a.s.! If the CD singles box version is really a result of the engineer's pressing the "mono" button, then of course it is past all repair. I never thought of checking the Past Masters version. If it preserves the "two channel mono", then it stands to reason that picking the better channel would give a better result. I'll try this when I get home.

BTW, did you do the same comparison for She Loves You?