see post on this page... (3) @The Audio Show, Any Audition Requests? | Page 2 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums
I am not a big fan of panels in general or Magnepan but it's really tough to get on the LRS+. We have to consider the bang for the buck and the LRS+ is about as good as it's going to get for $1,000 a pair if you have the associated gear and are in the right sized room - but most people in this price range are going to compare it to smaller standmount speakers or probably cheaply made floorstanders. I don't think the LRS or the 1.7 are priced to such a degree that they should garner too much criticism. They offer a different kind of sound - some people like that - indeed, they love it and for them, there is nothing else. I like the products that people get passionate about. Magnepan is one of those brands.
No he placed the AN E in his second listening room which had proper corners. That doesn't mean no one ever gets rid of them - Art Dudley replaced his with DeVore o/96 speakers - Jack Roberts, formerly on our staff, replaced his with Teresonic Ingenium speakers (that I also really liked and could certainly live with). I have seen their rooms and if I had their rooms I would not buy the AN E - it's remarkable to me they liked them as much as they did. Jack's rear wall was a false wall that he placed in front of an overhanging kitchen so behind the wall was a big empty space like a giant cardboard box. The Teresonic is a single-driver speaker with a front-facing port and doesn't possess the bass depth or dynamics of the E. This would easily sound cleaner and free from all kinds of bass boom. I think Jack would have kept the Teresonics but the owner of the company died and the company closed down. To some reviewer's thinking, it helps to have current selling speakers as your reference (and some feel it is better to cycle through products continuously - as many reviewers are not paying anything for their products).
I owned the Nunephar mini V2 for about 9 months and I agree that they do sound like that. It took me a good long time to position them and find a correct amplifier for them. They also took forever to smooth out. After about 4 months I was really happy with them, and after another 5 it was time to move on. I would consider getting them again. Mine were in the Indian Applewood veneer, and folks visiting always commented on how pretty they looked.
I heard Cube Audio a few years back at CAF and thought the same thing as @avanti1960 but it's certainly the case they might not have been broken in or setup well.
Look I recommend Audio Note a lot because I tend to recommend what I would buy first and then go to alternates second. Other people recommend the same thing over and over and over - the difference is when they recommend a Yamaha or Lusman Integrated amp over and over and over again - you only see the word Yamaha in amp threads - when it's speakers they will have a different brand or two they recommend that is not named Yamaha. So you think - see that guy likes all these different brands - well no if Yamaha or Luxman made a speaker they felt was as good as the amp would recommend them too but Luxman doesn't make speakers (or not highly regarded ones). Most companies are known for making a particular aspect of the chain - You buy Bryston amplifiers - that is what Bryston is mainly known for - they make a CD player and a streamer but that's not the primary business - ATC makes amplifiers - again that is not what they're known for making - You buy ATC speakers. You look at AN and all of their stuff is just as highly regarded as all their other stuff. So now whether it is a turntable thread, a digital thread, a speaker thread, or an amp thread and whether the price is $2k or $20k or $60k there is something they have that's highly regarded. Quick example - I often recommend the Sugden A21a speaker and the PureAudio Project Quintett 15 loudspeakers - but that's really all they make that I recommend - (Sometimes the Masterclass Series from Sugden too) but the amps lack power - people buy SS generally for big power. I am limited to recommending Sugden for amplifier requests - they are not known for anything else and the request has to be for amps in that $3500 price range - I can't recommend it for someone wanting to spend $2,500. The Quintett 15 is really good but again - a person has to be in the $10k-$15k range and has to have space for a speaker that has a whopping four 15inch woofers per side - hence Quintett 15. I'd love to recommend Acapella Audio Arts more but there are not many folks here asking about $40,000-$850,000 loudspeakers. I see people on forums recommending their Yamaha or Luxman or Accuphase amps or Magnepan speakers every chance they get. I don't see a problem - you should recommend the stuff you would put your own money down for. That's why I lasted a whole 3 days in Audio Sales - I could not look people in the face and sell them stuff we sold in the store that I wouldn't buy or felt there was something much better for less down the street. If you bought a Luxman amp and you like it much better than a Rotel - then don't recommend the Rotel just to be "seen" as someone objective - it's disingenuous - if you think the Luxman is GOD tier 1927 Yankees level amplification and the next tier is 5-year-olds playing T-ball - then that's what you feel and you should feel free to say it.
I don’t think that’s fair or in keeping with this forum. He can speak his mind and share his enthusiasms. He isn’t shy about saying what he’s gotta say. And neither were you, for that matter.
I get it - like road kill, they just gotta look. But it's true - I have remained generally consistent in my views for over 20 years and I use my name or my initials on every forum so they know what I am going to say. Thus, just put me on your ignore list. Audio Shows are fun - I live in a city that is essentially an audio show every single day - buildings with 20+ floors of audio dealers - Start at the top and walk down to the next floor and listen to some other $100k system or speaker. I think the main problem is the focus on the gear or the price or the technology and has strayed so far from enjoying the music. I am typing this from work with a pair of Meze 99 Classics headphones plugged into a PC and listening to YouTube - I enjoy the music I am listening to - and I do this every day - sure I pull out my Hiby player from time to time - but it's not needed. The essence of the music program is intact on most equipment. Then it's all about what priorities you are after. It often seems more about forum discussions - perhaps THIS is the hobby - the mere fact of arguing about measurements and price and DBTs and of course "mine is better than yours." On another forum I left - it was getting too political and I realized that I was arguing with the same, maybe 7-8, people every day for a long time over the pandemic - I had too much time on my hands - but I realized that will all the writing and arguments back and forth that no minds were changed, no points conceded (not any important ones) so it was more about people "venting" to the internet - I mean I don't know any of those people - in real life - they're the sort of people I would emigrate to avoid. Audio should not be something people get riled up about - oh there goes that guy who loves his Magnepans or his Audio Notes or his Accuphase gear again.
^^you are thick skinned and I admire that. Your love for AN is no different than the sl1200 lovers, or the cable lovers, Klipsch lovers etc. Were all more or less the same.
Unlike many, I don't have a problem with you and generally enjoy your posts (I've even defended you on an occasion or two). But this made me chuckle a little because I think there are some contradictions in what you are saying. You say that the problem is the focus on gear and technology and how that strays from simply enjoying the music. But I'm not sure anyone exemplifies that on the forums more than you. You tend to be very regimented with what type of gear goes in the good box and what goes in the bad box. It's possible that you don't hate certain equipment quite as much as how it comes across. Perhaps. I'm not really sure. Then you mention that the essence of the music is intact on most equipment. But you kind of slag a lot of gear and say things like, "where's the magic?", and how a lot of gear just leaves you cold. I think the essence of music is emotion, so if 99% of all SS gear, 90% of speakers, and 50% of tube amps (of the p/p variety) sound sterile to you then how can you feel the essence of the music is intact on most equipment? I think goosebumps/chills and that sort of thing is a good barometer. Music should give you that sort of physiological reaction. Or it should make you want to move, or grab your attention so that you follow the playing, etc. The former I think are based on how things sound, while the latter are more of the Linn/Naim PRaT thing, where it's the actual playing that is the focus, and how beautiful the sound is is secondary. But whatever one likes, it's an emotional and/or physical reaction in the listener as opposed to sheer boredom. I've heard many systems that to me were dull and clinical and others that caused the desired reaction. I'm not sure I could put them in boxes - this type of gear does it and this type does not. I tend to think all competently designed hi-fi equipment has its strengths and they can be unlocked with the right amount of set up and synergy between that component and others. Whether those are the strengths you want is another story, but if you don't maybe it's just not your cup of tea (rather than thinking it must be seriously flawed). People like B&W and Bryston, to give two examples, otherwise they wouldn't have had the success they've had for so long. Maybe I am lucky in that I can listen to a B&W and appreciate what it does well, and I can listen to AN (or Harbeth or Spendor, etc.) and like what that speaker does too. I am not drawn to the weaknesses as much as some others might be, where it almost becomes a fixation that they cannot get beyond. Of course, everyone wants to find something that they love rather than just appreciate certain aspects of. But that's definitely a personal thing.
I also enjoy Richard's posts. He often comes up with a different view or info that I hadn't considered. He likes AN, that's fine. I do wonder how he views the original Japanese AN (now Kondo) and this one? Sorry if I killed this thread. I also really appreciate Avanti starting this thread and sharing so many speaker impressions. Thanks, barondla
Ah yes I see why my posts would be confusing - on the one hand I say that it's the music that matters and on the other hand I key on the fact that very little contains the magic or breath of life to my ear. I think the disconnect here is due to the money/expectation. I can enjoy music on my Meze Classics from a PC playing YouTube (a terrible source) and reasonably affordable headphones. I can enjoy the music well enough - it does not give me the "magic" - I can then listen to a Revel/Benchmark set-up for $40,000 or a Classe and Bryston Set-up for 80,000 and of course, it sounds better than my headphone/pc but still doesn't give me that "Breath of Life" "Goosebump" experience. It's intellectually better - but not more emotionally involving for me. I expect more at $10,000 than I do at $500. When I auditioned The Vivid Giya speakers with Dan d'Agostino amplifiers at $150,000+ I expected that it would move me emotionally better than an Audio Note OTO, AN E/Lx and a CD 2.1x for around $15k and let me play all my recoprdings just as I can on the latter system. When it doesn't do these things for me - and at very high prices - then I take issue - I don't expect a $4000 system to give me everything the $15k system does - But when the $150k system doesn't do emotion as good as the $15k system and doesn't do it any better than the $4,ooo system - then I harp on it more. It may be technically better, it may have more bass and play louder but quality interests me more than quantity. This is why you seem me recommend people try speakers like the Magnepan LSR+. I am not a Magnepan fan at all - but for $1000 you look around the rest of the market and other speakers generally have more weaknesses so to me it's a speaker worth checking out before you buy the dime-a-dozen stand-mount speaker on the market or cheaply made floor standers. No Magnepan gives me that "Breath of Life" but then no $1k speaker I have heard from anyone else does either. So my standard for that is gone and then I am back to the standard "audiophile traits of soundstage, bass, imaging, treble and bang for the buck.
Thanks for the clarification. Maybe it should go without saying, but those are simply your own personal interpretations of what you are hearing and that doesn't necessarily translate to others. To you, a good SET amp into high efficiency speakers is generally the recipe for musical enjoyment, but other people might be thrilled by the sound of a powerful SS amp that has a great degree of control over a speaker producing a sound that can stop and start on a dime with seemingly unlimited headroom and resolution. Or they might like something else completely. You've often mentioned how owners of SET systems never started there; they started with Classe or Bryston into B&W or Harbeth and many other such combinations and they stopped at SET. That's true no doubt, but how many out there have tried combinations like those and stuck with them because they are happy? Are they all deaf, or maybe they just have different priorities in terms of how their systems sound? I think of Angie from American Sound in Ontario - she has something like 40 years of experience and can bring in and use whatever lines she wants. She has not gravitated towards low powered tube amps. I think this hobby boils down to different camps. You have the SET group, the big watts/current group, panels, open baffle, BBC, active speakers, no x-over, Class A, , Class D, p/p tubes, and the list goes on. It really just depends (on numerous factors) which camp one eventually find they belong to.
Whenever someone talks about what they think is best - on any "subjective subject" - it should always be taken as their subjective opinion. I started with SS - when I first heard tube amps (Push Pull El34 and KT 88) I was roundly disappointed with them and I stayed with SS. I have been to audio shows and dealers and homes and heard systems I like sound poor. So it also matters as to "which order" we hear things. First impressions and all. If I really like system A and then at a show or a dealer or in someone's home it stinks - I say - well I heard it sound great before so it must be the recording the room or the setup because I know System A has the ability to sound really good. There was a cable maker that lived near my home in Nanaimo BC - the fellow used the Gershman Acoustics X1/Sub 1 (kind of a poor man's but more likeable sounding Wilson Watt/Puppy kind of speaker. He brought in some AN-K speakers and several others came over to his place to to compare various amps and speakers. The Gershman acoustics sounded better than the AN K in his set-up - albeit the AN K sounded better at home in my set-up than all the speakers had sounded in his room in his set-up. All that stuff matters. He was running SS Odyssey Stratos amplifiers into the AN K - the speaker was sitting directly beside (on the inside of) the Gershmans at least 5 feet from the back and side walls - The AN K sounded bright. Anyone listening to that comparison would choose the Gershman and Odyssey amps including me. One of the reasons I circle back over and over and over again to brands that I have not exactly loved is because other people love them - there is a reason for that especially when they have been around for decades and command premium dollars. But it's not always easy to audition stuff the way the manufacturer would like - listening to Soundlab in a small hotel room because they were given the wrong room as happened at one show - it's tough for them to overcome that. Lastly, of course - each person as you note has their own tastes. I mean we all have our own taste in music thus it stands to reason that we would ALSO have our own taste as to how that music is delivered.
probably as a dealer you need volume sales to pay the rent? SET based systems appeal to a minority of audiophiles but a miniscule amount of hifi consumers.
Yes, but she doesn't carry any brands like that. If you loved SET and you were a dealer, you'd carry one or two options and then have other brands that paid the bills. She's also noted (videos on You Tube) that her personal preference is towards high powered amps, and building around the best preamp one can afford. I think we can conclude, based on percentage ownership, that SET, for whatever reason, does not appeal to most audiophiles. I like that sound a lot from the times I've heard it, but it just hasn't come together for me personally where I was able to buy and run a SET amp (aside from Sugden, if that is even true SET). I think one can get that kind of sound in other ways, so audiophiles can approximate it if they choose certain gear without necessarily resorting to buying a 6 watt amp and the speakers that such an amp can drive properly.
I don't think we can conclude your assertion at all. For a low sensitivity speaker to perform as intended, it MUST have sufficient headroom or wpc/current/both for the dynamic passages to replicate what a low power/high sensitivity setup can achieve. Sugden is not a "true SET" nor is it remotely a SET of any kind, Sugden is a company building (mostly) class A solid state gear, although I believe their anniversary 50 was not class A at all (class A/B or Class D IIRC). Excellent single ended triode amplifiers (they are vacuum tube based, usually one triode per channel) driving excellent high sensitivity speakers is an experience....once heard, you can never un-hear it. Just because a dealer doesn't carry SET's doesn't mean they aren't superior, it means the dealer doesn't have the experience/expertise/desire to sell them...they are in the business of selling things, not admiring things. Sometimes dealers choose not to acquire/hire the technical knowledge to sell and service SET's. Sometimes their customers would likely prefer the sound of a well curated SET setup but SET's aren't well suited for stuffing in a cabinet, they aren't ideal for surround sound, replicating car crashes or gaming duties. A sure fire way to NOT sell a decent solid state system though is to have it sitting next to a decent SET setup. If someone demos both, there is a high likelihood the dealer wont sell either because the customer's domestic situation might not allow for a well thought out SET setup but they wont buy the other system because, by comparison, it didn't sound very good. Please go hear a great SET setup for a point of reference. You might or might not drink the kool-aid but many of us have owned a lot of other gear over the years and our only regret was wasting a lot of precious time and money prior to discovering the superior sound quality of a well set up single ended triode system. No offense intended whatsoever but based on your description of Sugden as perhaps being "true SET", I am reasonably certain you have yet to enjoy hearing a SET of any kind (and Sugden gear sounds quite good, it just doesn't approach the sound quality of a 300b, 211 based SET system). Best wishes.
I wonder which dealer in Portland metro area offers a great SET setup in a proper room for critical listening.....
Hmm, when search for the name, I found Gig Harbor Audio, which is about 3 hours away.....I am not curious enough to travel that far yet......but thanks for giving me a tip for future visit.
Understood. I live literally in the middle of nowhere (unless you are a snow skier) so three hours away seems close.. Especially so if you have a conversation with the dealer so they can be ready with what you want to hear set up for a listen. Best wishes.
I disagree - I think we can come to that conclusion because the numbers are the numbers. The SET camp is relatively small. I purposely left that assertion vague - that SET, for whatever reason, does not appeal to most audiophiles. “for whatever reason” could literally encapsulate anything. Despite frequently reading Sugden amps described as SET amps, I’ve always had my doubts. That’s why in my post I stated, “if that is even true SET”. I wrote that because I’m not sure it is, and if you’re confirming it’s not, I have no arguments. I ran it into PMC TB2i speakers. Not exactly a speaker made for low powered amps, although it’s an easy load (I believe a low of 6 or 7 ohms) and is 90 dB sensitive. So, despite its reputation for needing gobs of power, it is not hard to drive, and the Sugden drove it perfectly fine (it did struggle with some other speakers I tried it with though). It sounded great, but I’ve always wondered if I was hearing all the amp was capable of – there are probably better speaker matches than PMC. Though I do believe it was a good match, and I’d put the Sugden over just about every other amp I’ve tried so far, so it did shine pretty brightly. I misspoke about Angie’s POV and I want to correct that – I went back and watched some of the video about her just now. The importance of the preamp being most important in her view was correct, but her outlook on power is to have what your speakers need (there is no need for more). It’s big speakers she likes and a real presence in the sound – pressurizing the room and filling every corner of it with sound so that it’s felt, not just heard. She has a system with Avantgarde Trio G3 speakers with amps built in. And she does carry one SET amp – the Western Electric 91E. It seems she sells more ARC, VAC, Esoteric, Boulder, and Bryston, but I suppose that speaks to what you are saying in that certain speakers need the power those amps can output. Just to make the correction again, my comment about Sugden had more to do with my doubts it was a true SET. I am not thinking I know the SET sound based on that amp, just to be clear about that point. I’ve heard AN a couple of times now; the first time it sounded incredible and that made an impression on me. It was much more of the SET experience that I’ve heard others describe than was the Sugden in my room. So, far from being a SET expert, I think I can say I got a good taste for what SET brings to the table. The trouble is finding affordable speakers to fit a small room and a power amp that is also affordable. Say $10K total for both of those. I think one can get a lot of the qualities SET brings to the table without going all the way there and that’s probably where I will end up. Perhaps an AN P2 or the Luxman MQ-88uC. These are two options I’m considering. Who knows though – in 5-10 years I should have more disposable income and live in a home that will be more suited to having a real audio room. At that time, I could see myself exploring the option for a SET system much more seriously. I'm happy with the sound I'm getting now though, so no urge to run out any buy something until the time is right. I guess my point, that I didn’t make very well, is that I see many people with a lot of experience and passion in this hobby, on this very forum and in other places, and they have opted not to buy a SET amp. Is that for lack of hearing such a system, or that their amp is stuffed into a cabinet, or that they run surround sound, or need to replicate car crashes or play video games? Come now, I don’t think most people on this forum and most who are into two channel audio buy systems like that. Could it just be that their non-SET system produces the kind of sound that they are happy with? Hearing a system is something that happens in the listener's mind, so I can't even begin to judge the decisions anyone else makes in this hobby - I can't possibly know what they feel when they hear a system. A few folks on this forum talk highly of some of the newer gear that measures very well. These are people with plenty of experience. Is the gear really that good? Who knows? I've not heard the system they are listening to and, even if I did, I'm not in their mind to know the experience they have when they listen. I just trust them when they say they love it and it's really great. It could be that great for them and may or may not be for me.
Saying anything is the pinnacle of any endeavor is not realistic. A SET driving a high eff speaker may do it for some but others will spend more for SS electronics and Wilson speakers. They could have anything they wanted. Insinuating that others are not discriminating enough to go SET/hi eff speakers is elitist. Saying they do not know good sound or do not experience emotional involvement is silly. The same arguments are made about early gen 911's and the current models. Emotional content, involvement, etc. But when you strip away the flowery prose it comes down to the new cars are better in every single way. They are better at their intended function. As a car. Speed Handling Safety Efficiency Comfort Features Every single one Feel/enjoyment is subjective Performance is objective The same can be said about hifi. In terms of fidelity and accurate reproduction of the source modern gear is miles ahead. It is not debatable. Just as some prefer a clunky gearbox, brakes that fade, cabin noise, unruly in the wet and low mpg, some prefer the inherent limitations of a SET system. It is claimed to truly appreciate the music SET is the definitive metric, but factually if you want to extract the most faithful reproduction of the source material there are better ways. Modern gear is better at its intended function. Reproducing a recorded source, generating and amplifying a signal to drive a speaker to modulate atm pressure. It comes down to taste, and often that has nothing to do with actual performance. The magic is in the music, NOT the box. Some will sound just as good on a table radio and some like crap on a $xxx,ooo system. And the good may not evoke any greater emotion on the $$$$ system than the table radio. The emotional generator is within us, and by us, not the box.
