A report of the Salvo label reissue of "Procol Harum"(debut)

BtP is still listing "Home" for sale:

http://www.btpstore.com/product_info.php/cPath/2_5/products_id/41

 

...and on an unrelated note, BtP has track listings (but no prices or release date yet) for the next 3 CDs after home (Broken Barricades, Live with the ESO and Grand Hotel):

http://www.procolharum.com/phalbum5_salvo.htm
http://www.procolharum.com/phalbum6_salvo.htm
http://www.procolharum.com/phalbum7_salvo.htm

One of the bonus tracks on Grand Hotel is a raw track of "Bringing Home the Bacon" with Dave Ball on guitar.

 

I recently rediscovered my love for PH and have some mixed feelings in regards to the sound of these Salvo releases. I always liked the sound of the Westside 30th Anthology Box and after doing some research here through searches, I found a copy of the 1st Album Plus and it sound’s great. Phil hit the nail on the head with the various differences. (I appreciate the insight) The Westside 1st Album Plus has much better sound overall. IMO I don't think Salvo got to use the same source tape as Westside. The speed is another problem too.

Do the separate Westside CD's from "Quite Rightly So" to "A Salty Dog" use the same source tapes as the 30th Anthology and is the major difference the addition of the bonus tracks?

 

Westside admitted, that when the debut album appeared in the 3-CD "30th Anniversary Anthology" that they were using a copy tape, but claimed that when they released "First Album...Plus", that they used "The Original Production Master" which they found at Abbey Road Studios. These reels also contained a rejected, early guitarless version of the song "Shine On Brightly". But, though(for the 10 main album tracks) I prefer the sound of the Westside disc, whether that "Original Production Master" was the 10 original mono mixdown masters spliced together onto one reel set, or whether it is a generation away from the original mixdown masters, depends on the practices of the original producer or engineer. And that "Original Mixdown Master" did contain the "wrong" mix of "Conquistador"(the one heard on all CD editions of the album prior to the Salvo CD.) My guess is, that, for unknown reasons, during the 5 month delay of the UK L.P. release, that for some reason, the different mix(with different organ solo) of "Conquistador" was inserted into that "Original Production Master" reel set. I stand by my view that Westside's "First Album...Plus" is the best sounding CD of the debut album. (I'm not refering to the bonus tracks. But with unique previously unreleased bonus tracks in both the Westside & Salvo CD's
you need both discs.) The pitch/speed differences between the Westside & Salvo CD's of the debut album are(on most tracks) very subtle and no cause for alarm.
But having heard the Salvo "Shine On Brightly" CD, I am more concerned about questions over the tape speed on that disc.(until yesterday, I had only played the bonus tracks on Salvo's "Shine On Brightly". Those sound fine with respect to fidelity & tape speed)

 

The track listings look excellent. I look forward to these. It is known that 5 "Grand Hotel" songs were attempted with Dave Ball, but this one backing track may be all that now exists, or, in any event, all that Gary Brooker will approve for release. For the albums from "Broken Barricades" onwards, Brooker owns the recordings.
Incidentally, it is Dave Ball's view that for the 5 studio tracks he recorded with the group, that the released versions were the same takes, but with his guitar replaced by Mick Grabham, though Ball claims that his rhythm guitar work remains on one of the released tracks. But Grabham claims that all of the songs were entirely re-recorded after he joined the group.

Trivia fact: Ball was present for the album cover photography sessions for "Grand Hotel". What you see on the eventual album cover is a modified version with photos of Mick Grabham's face glued over Ball's face. Ball is very very tall. Grabham isn't.

 

Is it aggreed that, aside from the speed issue, that the Salvo Shine On Brightly sounds better than the Westside?

 

Yeah, the Salvo sounds great.

I posed the question(concerning tape speed) to original co-producer Tony Visconti by e-mail. Tony promptly replied, and admitted that though he has received the two Salvo CD's, he hasn't gotten around to listening to them. As he indicated, analogue tape speed(at least in the days before time code) was not a precise thing, and (back then), if there were any questions about the album's tape speed(when playing the masters on machines other than the ones that they were recorded on) no one mentioned anything to him. Though the people at the Procol Harum website made their deterimination(that the album was running a quarter tone fast on the Salvo CD) by attempting to play along with Robin Trower's guitar part on the the song "Shine On Brightly", Visconti has said that a better test would be to try to play along with the fixed pitch of Matthew Fisher's organ. If time permits, Visconti may attempt to do just that.

 

I wonder why MFSL never mastered the first two albums.

 

My Bad... But do the other single Westside CD's "Shine On Brightly" "Home" & "A Salty Dog" use the same source tapes as the 30th Anthology and is the only major difference the addition of the bonus tracks? Do they sound the same? Better? Do I want to get those too! ....LOL

 

Dave Ball also said he can be heard on the spoons on "A Souvenir of London" and, as I recall, the recorder on "Bringing Home the Bacon."

Dave attended a fan convention back in 2000 and, as part of his introduction, it was mentioned that he's wearing his own head tonite.

 

As far as I know, the tape sources for "Shine On Brightly","A Salty Dog" & "Home" used on "30th Anniversary Anthology" were then also used on the individual CD's. This doesn't mean that they are neccessarily the same masterings.

 

They could always do a mono mixdown and label it a "alternate"

 

And now, I understand that an American vinyl reissue of the Procol Harum debut album that was packaged with a bonus 12" of "A Whiter Shade of Pale" & "Homburg" was also initially packaged with an additional item: a 7" single with a true stereo remix of "Lime Street Blues". This item is long gone.... out of print for 7 years.

 

Thanks for that Phil. Keep us posted. I listened to a clip of the 1968 version of A Robe Is Silk and IMO that is a major find. For the fan the reissue may be worth it for that track alone.

Understandably Blue and the upgrade of the 3 vintage stereo mixes from the first album are enough for me to splurge on the first album reissue. I'm looking forward to the Salty Dog bonus tracks as I've never heard any live Procol other than the Edmonton Symphony Orchestra album.

 

I'd be curious to hear any or all the tracks Dave Ball did for GH. I saw him with the band once, and he just didn't fit in. When they played Whiter Shade, he just stood there with a goofy look on his face, and made it clear, he didn't know the song. Grabham was a good choice I think. He was great every time I saw him with the band.

Those live 1969 tracks are a surprise. Anyone know where they are from? I saw them in 1968 and again in 69, when Salty Dog came out. That was a monster live band... They were fun to watch too.

 

could they be from the Fillmore? I'm pretty sure I read that there would be some bonus material from some of their shows there. Not sure is it was East or West though.

 

I haven't heard them but I think they might be same as the ones on the Easter Island boot. (I think Phil mentioned this CD earlier in this, or some other recent thread.)

I believe that CD is from a Fillmore West and LA Troubador show.

It would have been nice if they had also included the unreleased instrumental track "Stoke Poges" (listed as "Chelsea's Song" on EI).

 

"Stoke Pogues" was a Matthew Fisher arrangement of a classical composition. A studio version was recorded at A&M Studios during sessions for "Long Gone Geek", but the tape has never been found.

 

By the way, I would like to make it clear to the people at Bucks Music(AKA Fly Records), the owners of the 1967-1970 Procol Harum recordings, that the article on the Procol Harum website concerning the tape speed/pitch controversy in the main album tracks on the expanded "Shine On Brightly" CD was not written by me(though it quotes from one of my posts here on the Hoffman forums)

At the time that I read the article on the Procol Harum website, I had yet to play the main album tracks on the Salvo label "Shine On Brightly" CD(at that point, I had only played the bonus tracks whose quality are excellent).

While it is measurably true(by the minutes seconds counter on my Pro Audio CD recorder*) that there are(on some songs in the 10 main album tracks) very slight differences in tape speed/running time between Salvo's CD of "Procol Harum"(debut album) & previous CD releases of the album, and more significant differences in tape speed/running time(on all the main album tracks) between Salvo's CD of "Shine On Brightly" and previous CD's of the album, I AM NOT MAKING ANY CLAIM AS TO WHICH CD EDITIONS ARE AT THE CORRECT OR INCORRECT SPEED. That determination should be made by the musicians & engineers who were there when the music was recorded.

I'm aware that the people at the Salvo label and Fly Records think that my comments have been unduly harsh, but in fact, I tried twice to give an extensive track by track review of the Salvo CD of "Procol Harum"(debut album) on Amazon.co.uk, but unfortunately, despite giving a favorable(4 stars out of 5) review, both times Amazon declined to publish the review.

While I have no problem with the fact that the Procol Harum website has "imported" my "review" of the "Procol Harum"(debut album) CD that first appeared here on this forum, they disregarded my update(subsequent in the thread), where I noted that the liner notes for the CD state that the different mix/take of "Conquistador" included on the Salvo CD is the version heard on the original January 1968 EMI/Regal Zonophone UK L.P., and that the mix/take heard on all previous CD's of the album was incorrect.(as for which version was included on the August 1967 U.S.A. DERAM L.P., I can't say, since I long ago sold off the L.P. at the dawn of the CD era).

While the two mixes/takes are otherwise audibly identical(and may feature the same vocal, bass,guitar, drums & piano performances), they include different organ solos.

* As for using the minutes/seconds counter on my Pro audio CD recorder to measure running time, this particular CD recorder enables me to check individual track running times by loading the CD, and then(with the unit in the stop mode) to use the track advance button to see the individual total running time of each song. I did not check the track running times with a stopwatch(as is suggested by the article on the Procol Harum website)

 

I thought it was Fillmore East. I'd have to check.

 

shine on album does sound fast but only slighty ! but is this the way this is mean't to be heard ? anybody figure this out yet?

 

According to http://www.procolharum.com/stoke_poges.htm (who should have been more careful about Phil's remarks, as described above):


Although many fans regards this as a Matthew Fisher composition, Stoke Poges was in fact composed by Gary Brooker and Matthew Fisher. Gary wrote the 9/8 bit in the middle, and Matthew the rest.

Matthew Fisher explains:
'It was Keith who came up with the title, and it was simply a joke reference to Repent. Maybe we should have called it Repent Stoke Poges. Anyway, it was generally considered not to be as successful an endeavour as Repent so we chose not to include it on the Salty Dog album.'

 

The whole point, is that I'm not trying to hurt sales on the Salvo Procol Harum CD series. They have more Procol Harum & Gary Brooker CD's under developement, and the bonus tracks planned for "Broken Barricades", "Live With The Edmonton Symphony Orchestra" & "Grand Hotel" look excellent. A Procol Harum box set is also under developement.

If the new faster speed/higher pitch on Salvo's CD of "Shine On Brightly" is correct, it will be reassuring to know. And if it is incorrect, the disc will still be worth buying for its' excellent bonus tracks(particularly the backing track for an unreleased 1968 version of "A Robe of Silk"). One thing is not in dispute: the actual sound quality of the "Shine On Brightly" album tracks on the Salvo CD is superb.

As for the "Procol Harum" debut album CD, the tape speed/pitch differences(versus previous CD's) is (mostly) quite subtle(except on "Conquistador") and no cause for alarm.

It is inevitable, with recordings that have been on the market for 40 years, and have been enthusiastically collected(by avid fans) through numerous vinyl & CD releases, re-releases and remasters, that we avid fans are going to scrutinise any new remaster in detail. We want to see things done right. It's the same situation as with Beatles product and that group's fans.

 

yep your comments have not stopped me from buying and enjoying whats been released so far

they do have their hackles up because of your comments but it does show what good things and bad things this site can do!
I Can't wait so see what comes after this first four in the way of bonus tracks !

 

Thank You.