More Elton - favor needed

More stuff. Polydor "Empty Sky" and "Honky Chateau" are exact clones of the DJM's...with the MCA's being the different (inferior IMHO) mastering for these two titles.

Here's the favor I ask. I'm too cheap to run out to the used stores and buy copies of either the MCA or Polydor of "Tumbleweed Connection" (takes too much effort and gas to drive all over town, scouring the used bins looking for them -- and I'm not in an Ebay kinda mood). I already have the DJM and it, too, has the "reverse channel problem".

So, if anyone has either of the other two pressings and Exact Audio Copy (it can be downloaded for free), we can do a quick peak level test on a couple of ripped tracks. It would be too difficult to do full-blown stat tests using CoolEditPro because the different drives *might* slightly effect the results -- offsets and stuff. Let's just stick with the easy stuff.

So, can anyone rip a couple of tracks....say "Come Down In Time" and "Love Song" and post the peak level results here on the board? It's given, in percentages, in the display screen of EAC after the rip is completed. Burst method is cool...it will have no adverse effect on results. This will give us a quick guide as to whether or not the MCA's and Polydor's were clones of the DJM.

Interesting sidenote...DJM Tumbleweed (and only this DJM so far) has an ADD SPARS Code....reversed channels and all!

????

TIA,
Dave

 

Hello David.

I have a "Elton John The Classic Years Tumbleweed Connection" Rocket 314-528 155-2.

If it is useful, let me know what can I do for you, and how. Have already a copy of EAD:

 

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for your offer, but the "Rocket" pressing is part of the '95 "remaster" series. Those discs were all re-done by Gus Dudgeon and revamped -- so they're not related to the earlier three vintages.

thanks anyway for your generous offer!
Dave

 

What's the current Forum wisdom regarding the '95 remasters?

 

Some love them, some hate 'em. Come to think of it...that's pretty much the way it goes for most everything 'round these parts....lol!

One thing is for certain. Dudgeon did quite a bit of tweaking to the masters. That's not to say that in the right environment they don't have their own quirky charms. In my car stereo, their beefed up, in-your-face sound actually kinda works on some of the "less busy" tracks for me. I just wouldn't call them "purist" transfers. In some cases, Dudgeon even did some fairly radical tweaking. He added reverb and chorus to "11-17-70" and, although I don't even own the "Caribou" remaster, I was told he "evened out" the dynamics difference during the intro to "Don't Let The Sun Go Down On Me". Haven't heard that one myself though (yet).

 

Results using Exact Audio Copy

First MCA pressing of Tumbleweed Connection


Come Down in Time
Peak level: 65.3%

Love Song
Peak level: 61.8%

 

I can live with the 11-17-70 remaster. The DJM of this title is a bit bright, the MCA very quiet and a bit dull, and difficult to get any volume... so the remaster it is.
Not too keen on the rest of the remasters (don't have Caribou or any of the other stuff after Captain, surprise surprise ) .
OT, but I must mention the Mofi's:- Madman has much too much bloated bass for my system\ears. Honky is very warm, maybe too much, GBYB and Tumbleweed best sounding Mofi's on my rig.

 

Re: Results using Exact Audio Copy

Thanks Grant -- you da man!

This makes things kinda interesting. With the DJM they're -

"Come Down In Time" 59.5%
"Love Song" 56.4%

I'd really be interested in getting the Polydor figures now. Due to the fact that, so far, in all cases except the self-titled EJ album, all of the Polydors have been clones of the DJM's. There *have* been instances too where the MCA followed suit, and with the reverse channel problem on all of them I *thought* this might be the case for this particular album. Odd that all three would have the reverse image, if one of them (i.e. MCA) *wasn't* part of the clone lineage. I guess not so odd afterall. Gotta get those Polydor figures now!

Just to be sure Grant, the channels are reversed on your MCA, right? That is, if on "Love Song" Elton's lead vocal is coming out of the left channel instead of the proper right....it's reversed.

thanks again,
Dave

 

Re: Re: Results using Exact Audio Copy

...just doin' what I can

Yes, Elton is coming out of the left speaker.

 

Re: Re: Results using Exact Audio Copy

Not Grant, but my DJM Japanese pressing of Tumbleweed has Elton's voice from the left speaker.

 

Re: Re: Re: Results using Exact Audio Copy

Thanks Michael for the info. Just curious. Do you have convenient access to a burner + Exact Audio Copy to rip the above 2 tracks? I'd be curious, just for the heck of it, if the Japanese pressing gels with the German DJM -- numbers-wise. If not...no biggie.

thanks again for your findings,
Dave

 

I tend to pretty much fall into the "love the early Elton, have some trouble with the post 'superstar' period" camp myself. I actually like quite a bit of "Blue Moves" (e.g. "Cage The Songbird") and probably *don't* like "Capt. Fantastic" as much as most Elton fans do. Actually, one of my least favorite albums of the classic period is "Don't Shoot Me," which so many Elton fans seem to love. I guess it just represents the turning point into the stuff that I truly detest of his -- "Crocodile Rock," "Teacher I Need You," etc... That is, the moment where he became more a "star" than an artist.

Just bury me with EJ, Tumbleweed, Madman and Honky (and maybe half of GYBR)...and I can die a happy man! Hell...throw the "Friends" soundtrack into the casket also, would ya?

 

Polydor Tumbleweed Connections

David, I own 3 different pressings of Tumbleed Connection on CD; the MCA, the Polydor, and the Japanese paper sleeve version. It's my fave Elton John album of all-time.

Here are the results from the Canadian Tumbleweed Connection - Polydor - 422 829 248-2.
Note: Elton's voice is in the left channel on Love Song.

Track 2 - Come Down In Time
Track 7 - Love Song

Drum roll please.............

 

The Polydor Tumblweed Connection appears to be a clone of the DJM. Very interesting...

So did I waste my money recently buying the MCA version? I thought Steve told us a while ago that the DJM and the early MCA pressings were the ones to have. Looks like some of the Polydor's may be OK too.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Results using Exact Audio Copy

Not unless EAC have come out with a Macintosh version (warning: Mac bigot up ahead!)

 

Houston, we have a problem.

My MCA pressing of Tumbleweed Connection is Canadian. Pressed by Cinram, who at the time was the only CD pressing plant in Canada.

Here are the results from the Canadian MCA Tumblweed Connection, MCAD 31103. Elton's voice is again, in the left channel on Love Song.

Track 2 - Come Down In Time
Track 7 - Love Song

Drum roll again, please.......

 

Tumbleweed Connection - Japanese Paper Sleeve Collection series

While we're here, I'll thrown in for free, the results from the Japanese Paper Sleeve Collection edition of Tumbleweed Connection - Mercury UICY-9102.
Elton's voice is in the right channel on Love Song.

 

Thanks Miike for all of your help. The Japanese Mini-lp Mercury uses the '95 remastering, so that explains that.

As far as the discrepancies between Grant's first MCA pressing and your Canadian MCA pressing...I'm at a loss. These are the slight peculiarities that I was afraid of, and they really throw a little monkey wrench into the big picture. We *do* now know that the Polydor too is a clone of the DJM, so at least THAT'S settled. : )

Again, for anyone joining this little exercise late. So far, ALL of the early "classic period" Polydors tested are clones of the German DJM's with the EXCEPTION of the self-titled Elton John album. There, all three versions are different masterings (w/ a different mix of "Sixty Years On" on the DJM).

One step further, the MCA's of GYBR, Madman, and Don't Shoot Me are ALSO clones of the respective DJM's/Polydors. The rest of the MCA's tested, so far, differ.

Aw hell...here's the tally so far:

"Empty Sky" - DJM and Polydor the same. MCA different.

"Elton John" - DJM, MCA and Polydor all different.

"Tumbleweed Connection" - DJM and Polydor the same. MCA different.

"11-17-70" - I only own the Polydor - not tested yet.

"Madman Across The Water" - Don't own the DJM. MCA and Polydor the
same.

"Honky Chateau" - DJM and Polydor the same. MCA different.

"Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only The Piano Player" - Don't own the DJM. MCA and Polydor the same.

"Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" - DJM, MCA and Polydor (single disc) all the same.

"Caribou" - Don't own any.

"Capt. Fantastic & The Brown Dirt Cowboy" - Don't own the DJM. MCA and Polydor different.

"Rock of The Westies" - Don't own any.


GH 1 - didn't fully test.
GH 2 - didn't fully test.


If anyone has any of the missing DJM's (or others)...feel free to rip a couple of tracks and post the results. This will help fill in the blanks.

later,
Dave


PS - Everyone totally confused yet?...lol!

 

David,
I've got the first MCA pressing of "Caribou" (CD pressed in Japan).
If you want the percentage results from that CD, please let me know.

 

I played this disc last night and thought the sound quality was right up there with the other early MCA's that I own. I would highly recommend the early MCA "made in Japan" pressing of "Tumbleweed".

I've own the DJM "Capt. Fantastic & The Brown Dirt Cowboy". I can post that later, if you would like!

 

David I have what I think is an early GH 1, on MCA, pressed in Japan, Columbia House edition. I can put up some numbers on that if you need.
I also have an original copy of the MCA "To Be Continued" box set, if you need that for any comparisons. I also have Steve's mastered, MCA Elton John compilation disc "Your Songs" as well.

Here's four songs from the Japanese Paper Sleeve Collection edition of Goodbye Yellow Brick Road - Mercury - UICY-9107.

2. Candle In The Wind
4. Goodbye Yellow Brick Road
10. The Ballad Of Danny Bailey (1909-34)
14. Saturday Night's Alright For Fighting

 

David,

In your comparisons, what MCA CD versions are you using, the original "Made In Japan" or the later "grid" versions? Thanks for your time and effort in making these comparisons; they are greatly appreciated.


Thanks,

Ed Hurdle
HeavyDistortion

 

I'm not David (although I play one on TV), but I *think* the only difference between those was the packaging. I believe David has done tests on at least a couple of those discs, and they were the same across the two versions.

Of course, the full artwork is nice on the first versions.

 

It seems clear that Cinram either doesn't get a digital tape from the US, or they do some type of extra conversion. As noted elsewhere, while Who's Next seems to use the same mastering as Steve's original, the levels are a bit lower, and the hiss is blacked between most tracks (it wasn't on the original).

Now, *some* Cinram discs might be the same - I'd have to go check.

So, my *guess* would be the Cinram of this CD probably uses the same mastering as the US MCA, but isn't a direct digital clone.

 

If Cinram wasn't getting direct digital masters from the U.S. labels, what then, were they getting? Steve, do you know if MCA Canada was mucking about with the masters sent to them by MCA U.S.?

I know in the case of other labels and other albums, the Canadian record companies have at time gotten their masters directly from the U.K. Just look at Beatlemania! With The Beatles. A Canadian reporter wrote an intersting story a few years ago about The Beatles albums and 45s that were pressed during the1960s at the RCA plant in Toronto. He intereviewed two guys who handled the mono and stereo pressings. He was also allowed by EMI to go into the "vaults" and look at the tapes. He describes in the article that the tape used for Beatlemania! With The Beatles was sent directly to Toronto from the U.K. It's a good possibility that this was a flat transfer. The Canadian pressing of Beatlemania! With THe Beatles has always sounded very fine.