Laser Turntable

Does anyone have one of these and if so, how good are they?

Laser Turntable

Thanks!

 

I came across this site several months ago. I wondered about them too.

A little steep for my income.

Joel

 

These have been around for a while now. I've never actually seen or heard one, though. I understand that they have a lot of trouble with dust and dirt, and sometimes with the first grooves on the record. Love to play with one.

 

As Steve says, dirt is a big problem. You have to clean them meticuously because a piece of dirt becomes a loud pop - much louder than a conventional stylus. I can't give any analysis of the sound beyond they're supposed to sound very good.

 

If you played a record that potentially has a very small and invisible ammount of mold on it, would it actually track the cut accurately?

Something inside me says that vinyl was meant to hear through a styli/cart kind of thing. Read through a lazer? Doesn't sound as fun or as accurate.

But then again, I haven't heard or seen one either. I'm just betting 1/2 of the reason is because they're no better than a $200 turntable.

 

I bet you're right, but at that price people probably assume it must be of audiophile quality. Maybe the only marketing angle they really have is "no wear"

 

Didn't Michael Fremer write up one of these in his Stereophile column at one point? And didn't he say something about it having trouble with colored vinyl, MFSLs and other semi-transparent discs?

 

ELP Laser turntable

Hi,

about 4 weeks ago I ordered the demo CD-R from their web site, and was pleased to receive it within 5 days - now that's a good service to begin with. I must add that I have seriously considered the purchase of their product, and would not have ordered the CD just for the fun of it (BTW they ask you not to do this, which is perfectly legitimate IMO).

The tracks on the CD seem to accurately reproduce both the strengths and the weaknesses of this turntable, and they really sound like needle (or better: laser ) drops without any further enhancements to persuade potential buyers.

On the CD-R they are A/B'ing the ELP vs. a conventional record player, and in depth. I don't have time today to go into detail, but please feel free to post questions, and I will answer them over X-mas.

PS. I didn't really expect it, but I must say I am impressed with the unit's performance.

Arne

 

Arne,

I'm sure we'd all love to hear your thoughts about it.

I would expect that there will be complete freedom from inner groove distortion (assuming the record is unworn) since there would be no tracing issue resulting from the stylus having to "fit" around the curves of the grooves, and relatedly, significantly lower IM distortion all around. Also there should be greater stereo separation than is achievable with a mechanical pickup. I wonder what the high frequency limit is?

 

The 'table has been around for a while, and the company has had at least two owners. There was also a significant price reduction in the (relatively) recent past. From all I have read about it, performance seems to be decent, if the record is clean (isn't a record cleaner included in the price?). The main selling point is NO record wear. None. For the serious collector and archivist, this is no small thing, and probably worth the price of admission.

John K.

 

If you no longer need to worry about wearing out record grooves, this is a
great thing. It could be a welcome addition to own one once some of the bugs are worked out and the price comes down a bit.

 

That's right. I can't dig it out, but from memory Fremer did say that any colored or transparent vinyl, including the old MFSL, aren't reflective enough for the laser to read.
I believe he mentioned that it comes with a VPI cleaning machine as well, pretty much an essential accessory with this player.

He was quite impressed with the sound and the thought of not having to worry about all the usual vinyl issues like tracking and wear. However, the laser assembly lasts a certain number of hours and he suggested buying a spare just in case the company isn't around in a few years.

A turntable like this could be just the right tool for sound archivists. Apparently it can do an amazing job on 78's and other vintage disks.

Dan C

 

OK, so my next question is:

Does any company make a laser turntable/cd player. If they did, I wonder what the difference in sound would be.

Just a thought

 

Only one company makes the laser turntable, so, ah... no.

 

I believe this technology has no future as such. The firesale prices (!) seem to prove it.

What they have is the building blocks for a derivative product that would make a map of the record face and use a computer-controlled regular tonearm to play it tangencially.

I really hope to see that in the future.

My second DIY turntable after I finish my Teres will be a much simpler tangencial design, built around my existing Thorens and SME III.

 

One of the universities here has an ELP turntable and I had the chance to take it home one night to compare it with my Linn-Sondek setup. BTW, the ELP turntable has been around since the late 1980's when it was called the "Finial" turntable. The design was taken over by a Japanese firm about 10 years ago or so.

One of the nicest things about it is the fact that you can adjust the laser angles to totally avoid inner-groove-distortions and damaged grooves. I played several old RCA Victor Red Seal classical disks (after cleaning them -- not on the VPI record cleaner supplied by ELP, but on my own Nitty Gritty cleaner) that had inner groove trashing. Those records, which were unplayable on the Linn-Sondek, were able to be played perfectly with the ELP turntable.

I also have a copy of the British version of the Small Faces "Ogden's Nut Gone Flake" album which has severe inner groove distortion. The ELP turntable was able to "fix" this record so that it played like a new record. I recorded this album to a CD-R while I had the ELP turntable. Really was amazing.

I had no problem playing JVC pressed MoFi LP's on it.

Any dust, hair, or other dirt will cause it to produce pops and clicks. I could not make the thing skip however, even on an uncleaned record.

The table sounds as good as my Linn-Sondek/Lingo/Ekos/Shure V15 turntable on new and mint condition vinyl.

The turntable comes with a Cedar noise reduction unit to reduce the pops and clicks. I found that this Cedar unit distorts the sound however.

I played a Frank Sinatra VDisc vinyl 78 RPM record on the turntable. It did a great job on it and was able to play the disc with very little surface noise after adjusting the laser angles. I did not try to play any shellac 78's on it.

 

I have to disagree with proufo. I mean, I'd hardly call 10,000$ a "fire sale" price.

I think the PRODUCT is an amazing concept. If you could take a badly worn LP and "read" it with a laser and come out with noise free music, think of the possibilities for the reissue companies.

To me, the key seems to be the 5 lasers. THATS why the thing is so expensive. If someone could redesign it to use ONE laser, I think they might come down to 1,999 or so...and a lot of vinyl lovers would be able to justify that price.

Shoot, I'D buy one at that price , just to make CDRs of my Lp collection, without any record noise.

 

I have never worn out a record so record wear is never an issue for me. Not having enough time to play records is. I did break a couple of styli by (stupid) accident so not having to worry about it is a big plus.

As far as sound quality is concerned, I have never auditioned an ELP laser turntable so won't be able to comment on it. The availability of spare parts and longevity of ELP are valid concerns. I wonder if the laser assembly can be refurbished by replacing the semiconductor laser. But there are other parts to consider as well.

The future of the technology? One advantage for the laser turntable is that it plays an established old format, not a fledging new one. It's been just over 16 years since the Final Technology LT player was first unveiled at the 1986 Summer CES. J. Gordon Holt called it "Undoubtedly, the biggest audio news" in Stereophile, Vol. 9 No. 5. I hope it will last many more years, as it has outlasted many other audio products.

 

Mikey,

I don't think five lasers would justify the five figure price. But limited hand production and a small market will. In this day and age, the cost of a laser diode should not be a dominant factor in the total cost of any end product it's in. Just look at the prices of mass market DVD players.

 

As Paul mentioned, I don't think that's the problem. Lasers are cheap. I think most car CD players have 3, and those cost well under $200.

 

Wow. I've read the PR, but hearing that from a fellow member...wow. It seems like the ELP would be a boon for people who hunt down used vinyl. For every minty record out there, there are probably a couple dozen with a bunch of (nasty) wear.

Ok, who wants to send me $10k? I accept PayPal.

 

After using this turntable for a few days (thanks to U of M's music library department), I am very tempted to buy it since I have a very large vintage record collection (> 10,000 records). The sound is unsurpassed as far as I can hear. It allowed me to play records that were totally trashed due to inner groove wear. Technically and sonically, I'm convinced that this turntable represents the "state of the art" in vinyl playing.

As far as the price goes, here's how one could make a justification for it...

My current Linn-Sondek setup retails currently for about $5,000 (Linn turntable, Ekos tonearm, Lingo power supply, Trampolin, etc etc). I don't know if Linn turntables are priced too high for what they are (I bought mine back in 1978 and have upgraded it and replaced about 5 belts through the years), but many analog systems are very expensive. If I started going for expensive cartridges (I use a fairly cheap Shure V15 currently), the turntable cost would then be about $6500.00. Is the ELP really that outrageous?

Maintenence concerns:

I have been in E-mail correspondence with the owner of ELP in Japan. He claims that although they recommend a refurbish ($500 plus shipping to Japan) every 7 years, most people don't do it. I have asked for statistics on how many units have had to be shipped back over the past 5 years for repair concerns.

My biggest problem is the fact that there are NO qualified service personel and parts depots in North America who can work on these. Every time that the thing would need warranty service, it'd have to be shipped back to Japan???!!!!!

ELP would be wise to train someone and have enough parts in North America to sell and service these things. According to their website, they've invested millions of dollars in the development of this turntable. Certainly, the cost of training a service man and supplying parts and equipment in North America should be MINIMAL compared to the investment that they've already sunk into this.

I'll let the group know whether I decide to take the plunge within the next few weeks. The Japan thing really bothers me.....

 

feinstein:
If you believe this is "state of the art" in vinyl, it's a friggin' bargain compared to the Rockport, which pushes a hundred grand!
The new TNT flagship runs for $10,000 as well, but that's not including a cart worthy of it. The price of the laser 'table can easily be justified. It would certainly be on my short list if I was that Power Ball winner!
Keep us posted on what you decide.
Dan C

 

feinstein: Many thanks for the first hand perspective - I may need to add one of these to my long term plans - where will the madness end ?

Wibble - Andrew

 

Yea, me 2