Michael Jackson Thriller - Analog or Digital Multitracks?

I recently purchased from a forum member the SACD of the gloved one's Thriller album. All reviews of this SACD claim the sound quality is mediocre for a SACD and after listening to it, I have to agree. Even through a headphone tube amp with an Amperex 12au7 (warm sounding) and a pair of Sennheiser HD-600 headphones (warm sounding), the SACD has that "gritty" redbook sound with the mid-range warmth pushed into the background. This experience has got me thinking about the source tapes for Thriller. Was this album recorded on analog tape or digital tape? It sounds like the latter as it brings back memories of some of those early DDD Cd's that were brutal to our ears. If that is the case, then I don't see how the DSD conversion could improve but only reveal the real master tape sound which is IMHO just OK. It is such a shame that such a classic album was recorded as such.

 

It's analog multitrack and mix. I guess it's Bruce Swedien's engineering you don't like.

 

The SACD of Thriller was mastered with peak levels above the recommended maximum level contained in the Scarlet Book (a result of good DSD metering not being available at the time) so could sound 'hard' on a player that cannot cope with its large amplitude signal. On a player that converts DSD to PCM there is the potential for clipping depending on how the relative 0 dB levels are determined in the translation from DSD to PCM. This could explain what you are hearing.

 

My universal player (Samsung HD-841) does not convert DSD to PCM.

It is surprising to think Thriller was recorded all analog. Where did all the tape hiss go?

 

The tape hiss is there but the album was recorded very well. There's a reason Bruce Swedien is considered a master engineer.

 

IIRC it was recorded on a 3M M79, but I can't say for sure. Of course that is an analog deck, but I once measured frequency response to beyond 45k on one I set up. They used an isolated loop type of transpoft to help with stability, lessen head wear, and increase high frequency response.

I think most of it was recorded at Westlake which was Tom Hidley room. Many of the Westlake rooms used 3M machines. Westlake not only operated their own studio, but were pretty big in studio installations. They were primariliy know for their monitors which were very siimilar to the Augspurger monitors, using dual 15's, a 2440 compression driver on a Smith horn, and a 2405 high frequency driver or two. IIRC their rooms were generally LEDE design. That stands for Live End, Dead End. They often had trick stuff like remote control wall coverings to change acoustics. I did some work at IAM in Irvine which was one of their designs.

 

Correct! One of the reasons that the noise floor is so low(even for an analog recording) is because of one of the methods Bruce Swedien uses during the tracking process. By using multiple 24 track machines with a sync pulse track recorded on each two inch reel, it wasn't necessary to run the same tape over the record and playback heads. Once that tape was filled up, it wasn't used again until it was time to mix. Cutting down on the amount wear and possible oxide loss of course makes for better sonics and less noise at the mixing stage.

Swedien came up with the Acusonic Recording Process while working with Quincy Jones on the soundtrack to "The Wiz". It was done as a way of having an unlimited number of tracks to work during the recording of the album. Since he records everything in true stereo rather than single tracks, it was necessary to have at least two or sometimes three 24 track machines for recording and mixing.

 

Hi,

Thriller was recorded analog! On 3M M79 24 track machines. My fave 24 track for sound quality and one of the best transports ever made and gentle on tape. Engineered by Bruce Swedien. I think this and "Off The Wall" are Michael's finest moments.

 

Thanks for confirming that Kent. I agree about 'Thriller' and 'Off The Wall' being his best work. The record business was in the doldrums before those came out and Michael almost single handedly rescued it.

The Stevens machines also had isoloops and were also very good sounding. I got to know one pretty well at Studio West in San Diego. Their problem was that they were a bit tough to work on. John Stevens used to visit us regularly.

 

Whoa. Lots of what you wrote went over my head, but I get the general gist. Based on what you wrote, what are some of the SACD players (preferably universal players) out there that does not convert DSD to PCM (sounds counter-intuitive but I'm a audiophile newbie)? Are most SACD players industry standard...or what?

 

Thriller is one of those strange discs which I prefer the CD remaster to the SACD. The SACD is OK, but compared to the CD, it's kind of lifeless. The CD remaster is one of the best jobs I've ever heard - it's dynamic, punchy, alive, and has zero "digititis". Same thing goes for the Bad remaster... the Gloved One may have lost millions of Sony's money on these remasters, but it really shows!

 

If it were digital, Bruce's process would have been called AcusonicD (for digital), as on Bad.

 

Michael had Bernie Grundman, the man who mastered the original LP's do the honors on the 2001 remasters of his Epic catalog. I agree he did do an excellent job on those titles. It was rumored that millions of dollars were spent doing the remastering and packaging, but it's just that, a rumor. All of those titles continue to sell well, especially "Off The Wall" and "Thriller".

 

Key word: Almost.

IMO, the advent and subsequent wildfire spread of MTV (which MJs videos played a key part of) also was instrumental in saving the foundering record industry (and to a lesser extent top-40 AM radio, which by 1983 was deep into talk/sports hell)

-Aaron

 

Two things could still be contributing to the sound you are hearing.

1. SDM modulator overload

Many sigma-delta modulators do not cope well with signals that start to get close to the theoretical 0 dB value for an SDM. For this reason, many SDMs are run at -12 dB or -6 dB relative to the absolute maximum. SACD was specified for a peak value of -6 dB (theoretical), but this was changed to allow short term peaks up to -3 dB. Higher peak values could cause the SDM to become unstable, and, if you continue to push the level, the SDM will reset which you'll soon hear!

2. analogue stage clipping

Even if the SDM is capable of handling the high signal level without problem, there remains the issue of whether the analogue output stage has been designed to cope with the resulting larger voltage. If a stage is designed for a maximum signal plus some margin, and then a larger than (specified) maximum signal comes along, it all depends on how big the margin is. If that margin gets exceeded, the stage will start to clip.

Since the HD841 is a fairly low-cost player, it is unlikely that it has what could be called a 'robust' (or heavily over specified) analogue stage.

Of course, having said all this, it could just be that you don't like the mastering on this particular disc!

Unfortunately, there is no hard and fast rule (e.g., all expensive players good, all cheap ones bad, or all SACD-only good, all universal bad). Designers of both cheap and expensive players have chosen to do DSD to 24/192 PCM conversion internally. Some players use sophisticated DAC chips that can cope with both DSD and PCM and still convert. Other players use the same chips yet handle DSD and PCM differently. About the only rules that seem to apply are:

1. if the manufacturer points out that DSD and PCM are handled separately, there's a good chance the player does not convert;

2. with universal players, if the player offers delay and other HT-type controls with SACD, there is a good chance that the player will convert to PCM (however, some players are clever, and do not convert if you leave all the controls flat, but converts the minute you engage EQ or delay changes).

To my knowledge, SACD/CD players that DO convert tend to be the exception rather than the rule. The well-regarded Sony players like the SCD-1, SCD-777ES, XA-777ES, XA-9000ES, DVP-9000ES, 555ES, etc. are all pure DSD machines, as are the early well-regarded Marantz models (SA-1, SA-11, SA-14, SA-15, etc.), and high-end players like Classe, Meitner, etc. However, at least one of the expensive Accuphase SACD/CD players DID convert to PCM. It gets more complicated with the universal players, and some manufacturers have players that both do and don't convert (Pioneer, for one). The best advice I can give is to read the manufacturer's description, and if the situation is unclear either ask about the specific model in the Hardware section, or take a look at some of the audio boards, as there is a good chance that someone will know the answer.

 

i seem to remember a Steve post from awhile back in which he stated that the Thriller SACD was the first time he ever heard the album sound the way it should. i wonder if he heard the redbook remaster, though, or if that comment was in relation to the original, older CD from the '80s.

 

Correct; Steve stated that the SACD of Thriller is how the master tapes sound.

 

I also rememebr him saying that it sounds best coming from horn-type speakers.

 

What imagnrywar, 22nd Row and tomhayes said.

On the "Thriller" SACD my experience is that "The Girl Is Mine" sounds quite nice and there is something strange, some kind of distorsion, on the voice in "Lady In My Life" (at least on my equipment).

 

The SACD and the current remaster are the only versions of "Thriller" that were mastered using the first generation masters. All other pressings were mastered from a flat second generation dub master.

 

I always thought Thriller was a digital recording, but also had doubts about it. On one hand it's dead quiet, backgroud noise is almost imperceptible, it has a lot of punch and dinamics are very good for a Pop recording from the 80s, but on the other hand there's no sign of digital harshness of early (and not so early) 16 bit digital recordings.
Now I know it's analog.

I haven't listened neither to the 2001 remaster or the SACD, I plan to buy one but don't know which one.

I like Swedien's engineering, I think Bad is a terrific sounding album even by today's standards. I don't know how he got Bad to sound crisp, punchy and dinamic with no trace of digital hardness.

 

Original CD

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=40029

According to this Steve's comments in the above thread the SACD was indeed mastered flat from the 30ips master (not sure about the remaster). However, the original CDs were mastered from a "Dolby A dub of the EQ cutting dub".

This implies that the LP was mastered from the EQ cutting dub.

Now, I never got on with the SACD - yes it sounded good but it didn't sound like "Thriller" to me. Then I got an original Japanese pressed CD and voilà - "Thriller" just as I remembered the LP sounding!

The moral of this story? If you want to hear "Thriller" as you remember it from 1982 then get the original CD pressing. Unless you are Steve and want to hear it as you did from the master tape 3 weeks before it was released to us mere mortals!

Even if you like the SACD I would recommend the original CD - you might be surprised at how much you enjoy hearing it as it sounded in 1982.......

 

Re: Original CD

Thanks for the correction Mal! I knew that the previous releases of "Thriller" on CD had not been made from the original master. Was just a bit unclear on exactly which tapes had been used. My memory was a little fuzzy on that one. According to Bernie Grundman, he did in fact use the original 30ips analog masters for the remaster he did in 2001.

 

I own every version of this album except the half-speed mastering, the cassette, and the 8-track cartridge.

The recording is particularly smooth...not bright. It is recorded and mixed VERY well, but it's not very exciting. Bruce Swedien is a master, and has been in the business for decades. he has also worked with producer Quincy Jones for decades, and Bruce has recorded amd mixed some of the biggest records of the rock & roll era.

I have the SACD, and it is the best way to hear the album. Again, it's not exciting, but it is high quality. I'll say one thing, it made me sit up and take notice of the song "The Girl Is Mine", and how good it really is. You just can't hear that on any other medium. "Beat It" sounds sooo smooth, and Eddie Van Halen's guitar solo doesn't stick out as it does on CD and LP.

Yes, the album was recorded and mixed 100% analog, as Swedien hated digital recording at the time. However, "Bad" IS a digital recording.

 

I cannot agree with this. The industry was well back on a recovery in the late summer and fall of 1982 before "Thriller" was quietly released. Not only was "The Girl Is Mine" already hot on the charts before the album's release, but the second British invasion was in full swing with huge hits by The Human League, The Stray Cats, and domestic artists Janet Jackson and Billy Joel. Let's not forget Australia's Men At Work with "Who Can It be Now?".

But, Jackson did give it a huge boost. His popularity even helped force positive changes at MTV.