horn loudspeakers, are there any disadvantages?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by inperson, Feb 24, 2006.

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  1. inperson

    inperson Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ohio
    I don't have any real long time experience with these type of speakers but I do have a chance of getting a new horn loudspeaker system for much less than it goes for retail. Anyway I was listening to them (at the manufacturers) for several hours yesterday. I felt that those horn tweeters really wore me out. I mean that I found my ears really tired after listening to them. Is that normal and is it something that a person just has to get used to over time or does it mean something else? Can anyone shed some light on the pros and cons of this type of speaker system? Maybe I am too vague in describing the speakers???


    inperson
     
  2. Ctiger2

    Ctiger2 Senior Member

    Location:
    US
    A little vague... What kind of speakers were they? What was the power source? What was the source?

    I can only give my experiece with my Klipschorns. If I use a solid state power source they were fatigueing. If I use poorly recorded/mastered sources they were/are fatigueing... even with a tube pre/power source. The best combination for me is to use tube pre/power source along with vinyl or properly mastered SACD's/CD's. Horn speakers are very revealing. Which can be good or bad.
     
  3. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    I've had different all horn loaded systems over the years and find the choice of driving electronics and front end source can be very critical as far as how the sound is reproduced. This may be more so than any other speaker design. Matched with properly "synergistic" electronics they can sound wonderful completely devoid of the listener fatigue that you describe. I've had plenty of experience with just how bad and good the exact same speakers can sound like depending on what was driving them.

    The thing I find strange in the situation you describe is the manufacturer should have equipment driving his speakers to bring out the best they can offer. There should be a synergy in the whole system and if the manufacturer can't produce it with his speakers how do they expect anyone else to?

    Maybe horn speakers just don't suite you but I wouldn't judge all horn speaker systems on just this one experience.
     
  4. inperson

    inperson Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ohio
  5. inperson

    inperson Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ohio
  6. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Just to advocate for the devil, for a moment, it can be said that they are not so much revealing as they are heavily colored. You have to get soft sounding electronics and recordings in order for them not to drive you from the room. Now this is devil's advocation here, not gospel.
     
  7. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    The above characteristics can be found separately, together or or not at all in many designs horns or not.

    I've had some very different sounding horn speakers. IMHO the rapid transient response of compression designs are very revealing. The ability to translate the signature of the driving electronics the way horn loaded speakers do tends to support the ability to resolve and reveal much more so than most other designs thus mandating proper choice of driving electronics and quality of source material.
     
  8. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    When I was doing PA in the 70's we tested many horns and found them to have surprisingly high levels of harmonic distortion. Keep in mind that most of these were driven by large extremely effecient compression drivers and their goal was to put out maximum output level. The shorter less extreme horns such as in the JBL studio monitors were not nearly as bad, and I'd imagine many of the horns used in hi-fi speakers are not as bad either.

    Of course horns come in many varieties. Some are designed for specific coverage patterns, both wide and narrow, or short or long throws. Some have metal driver diaphrams and some have phenolic and other softer materials. Some are radial, sectoral, exponential, conical or straight. There are really quite a variety and they all have their places.
     
  9. PakProtector

    PakProtector New Member

    Location:
    Dearborn, MI
    Hey-Hey!!!,
    There is too much variation in types of horn systems. Judging the many styles/geometry/material choices by a single example seems a bit silly. Using the same driver into different horns can illuminate the folly of that.... I once saw the same driver into two different horn lenses, and the result was quite enlightening. Totally different sonics, and I did get sold on the conical variant at that time.
    cheers,
    Douglas
     
    hvbias likes this.
  10. inperson

    inperson Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Ohio
    So it is true to say that some horn speakers can make you fatigued? Would a small room make it worse? My room is only 15ft X 15ft quite small for a listening area but this is China.
     
  11. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Hi,

    Horn speakers are very critical about quality of electronics and placement. I prefer driving them with 40 watt or less tube amps such as MC 30 or similar. Tube amps and preamps are best. Avoid poor recordings and masterings, they really bring out the worst in horn speakers. My wife uses her Altec Valencias with McIntosh MC 40 monoblocks, McIntosh MX-110 tuner/preamplifier, Thorens TD-224 turntable/changer, Sony SCD-1 SACD player, and Crown Prince Stereo open reel recorder. The same gear sounds wonderful driving Klipsch horns and Cornwalls, old Jensen horns, and JBL's. We now have some RCA LC-1 duocone speakers which also are great with classic tube amps. Fisher, Scott, Dynaco, Eico, and H-K tube amps work great with horn speakers too. You don't need huge wattage for horns.
     
  12. Jack Keck

    Jack Keck Forum Resident

    Location:
    Redford, MI
    I just got Klipsch Heresies last December. I'm using them with an NAD integrated amp and tuner and Sony carousel cd player. I don't have a SACD player hooked up to it.

    Yet!

    The disadvantage? It's damn near impossible to turn it off, even if I'm just listening to the radio.
     
  13. Hankster

    Hankster New Member

    Back when Jolson told audiences that they hadn't heard nothing yet, they really hadn't. Sound movie technology wasn't much past home radios. RCA, DeForest, et. al. had gotten pretty good at these, but the only way low-power amps and primitive speaker drivers could fill auditoriums with anything resembling audible sound was to use Western Electric PA horns, the World War I "loudspeaking telephones," developed at Bell Labs.

    These "snail horns" were outlandish spiral contraptions looking more like giant sea shells. If talking movies were going to be more than a gimmick, music had to sound better than at home, and voices had to be intelligible. Western Electric rather quickly invented the 3-way speaker. It had a 4x18" woofer on a rather inefficient open baffle, a super-efficient double midrange (the snail horns), and a 2x direct-firing tweeter.

    You get the idea. They had also invented driver mismatch and time distortion. The midrange sounds in your epic movie had 12 feet farther to go before they could get out into the auditorium, entertain the audience, and make you some money. Forget phase smearing. Try tap shoe sounds coming out of the thing twice! Not good. Dialogue had obvious problems as well. Giving your paying audience a headache is not a highly recommended presentation technique


    [​IMG]
     
  14. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    It has taken me about 25 years of trying all types of amplification both tube and SS to come up with an SS combo that sounds really good with my Kilpschorns. For a moment a while ago I was thinking of going back to a tube Pre-amp but my problem at the time was my SS amp had a pair of custom transformers installed along with other things and hadn't "broken in" yet. Now it's sounding terrific.
     
  15. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Hi all,

    The SS McIntosh gear works well with Klipsch Horns, Cornwalls, and Heresys. This is the early SS through the early 1980's. These units are voiced like Tube Mc gear.
     
  16. www.records

    www.records Active Member

    Location:
    Missouri
    I don't have very much horn experience, but I will say that my McIntosh MC40 tube amps and Altec 604's are very enjoyable and non fatiguing. I can and do listen several hours a day. Before I went to tubes, the Altecs were too bright and shrill to my ears at moderate listening levels. Good tube amplification and Altec horns is an audio pleasure for me.

    Steve
     
  17. vinyl anachronist

    vinyl anachronist Senior Member

    Location:
    Lakeside, Oregon
    I think that with horn speakers, you really need a large room for them to work properly, because you need to sit fairly far away for the drivers to integrate correctly. A big horn, like the ones used in Edgarhorns or Avantgarde, can get quite beamy and directional if you sit too close.

    Also, horn speakers need low-powered tube amps to sound their best. Put a lot of watts behind them, and they'll punch you in the face.
     
  18. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    Cool! :) Where did you find that info?

    dan c
     
  19. Ethos

    Ethos New Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Horns

    I see that this is an older thread but still very interesting to me. My JBL 3ways use compression drivers for both midrange and tweeters. I have found that a lot of a horn/comp driver's sonic signature is due to the material in which the diaphragm is made of. I have found that Titanium is shrill/harsh sounding, unless it is coated or there is a lot of R&D + $$$ in the crossover design. Aluminum is very smooth, phenolic is smooth too, but lacks HF response above 7-8khz. The new Beryllium drivers are to die for but you gotta have the $$$ to get them. That looks to be a nice horn design, kinda like a JBL 2397 Smithhorn or Westlake. Tube amp and comp driver/horn combos are wonderful together too. It takes a lot of time to put the right combination together though, it's not something that most will get right the first time or the 10th time for that matter. Once you do get it right, the results are very satisfying. So much depends on trial and error, money and patience.
     
  20. Kostas

    Kostas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Athens,GR.
    Avantgarde

    This is a company that makes modern horns and has break all the rules. Properly matched, they are revealing monitors with no coloration at all. Their solid state integrated, and the much pricier pre+power combo, have been designed to match their line of speakers. You'll see that horns are not "better" with valves. I have heard their DUO speaker with the Avantgarde integrated and preffered the combination from DUO's + Cary monoblocks or DUO's + Korato monoblocks. Their active Solo speaker is a world class monitor and has found it's place even in recording studios! http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.com/

    Saying that, i also like traditional horn designs. Properly matched, they deliver a sonic euphoria in my ears :edthumbs:
     
  21. rgoodnight

    rgoodnight New Member

    Location:
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    I may be going in a very different direction than more replies, but I think auditioning ANY speaker system for SEVERAL HOURS will wear out your ears. When we listen critically we might be playing at louder volumes than in our normal listening level and paying attention to a bunch of things such imaging, detail, bass extension, etc., all of which require you "strain" your ears (and brain). Critical listening to the most "easy on the ear" system, or even live acoustic music for hours can be tiring on the ears.

    Unless you do a similar audition with another system (similar time exposure, similar levels, similar music), I believe it's premature to point the finger to the horn speakers or the rest of the system.

    Randy
     
  22. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I thought the latest incarnation of the Klipsch Klipschorns were pricey, but not when compared to those German-made horn-loaded speakers featured at that LA hifi show covered in the latest issue of TAS.
     
  23. Gregory Earl

    Gregory Earl Senior Member

    Location:
    Kantucki
    That's the reason that used Klipsch speakers are such a hot item on eBay. You really do get a lot of speaker for the money. Dynamics produced by these speakers are startling. But they are not for everyone.

    Some folks just don't like horns. And some folks don't like vinyl. And that's OK. If it sounds good to you.......it's good :) .
     
  24. Sarchi

    Sarchi New Member

    Location:
    Ont/Canada
    I love horns. They can be the most magical speakers - but I think they're also the hardest to "get right"...and one of the most prone to room loading issues. Not the easiest path, but can be very rewarding. :thumbsup:

    I agree that source and amplification need to be really good.

    Whether horns are colored or not...who cares. Music is colored. Our ears are colored, so are our rooms. All that matters is how much you enjoy the experience. Asian audiophiles are heavily into horns and SET amps, if you look around you may find some small horns based around Fostex 4" or 5 1/4" drivers that may work well in your room..and save you some money. These full-range drivers are revered by many (especially in Japan) as the most pure sounding. They need some help from a sub, but not as much as you might imagine. That goes for all SET/horn combinations anyway.
     
  25. Ethos

    Ethos New Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Rooms, Friend or Foe

    I've discovered just how much room acoustics play a role in the last year. I knew that they were important before, don't get me wrong, I just hadn't experienced it for myself until I had the opportunity to move into a better home, that fortunately, was a perfect match for my system. My system didn't change, just the rooms. My present room is fairly large and has vaulted ceilings. Huge difference. The old room was very square, smallish and had a lot of cancellation issues. It got me to thinking about all the effort and $$$ I sank into trying to solve sound quality issues, and it was the room all this time. Same system, two very different results. I acquired a VTL EL34 based,45wpc amp (model Stereo 45). This amp powers my JBL 2441/Smithhorn midrange section. This is the first tube amp I've ever owned, I'm in love.
     
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