The Doors s/t stereo mix. What were they thinking?

another side · 12-07-2005, 10:22 AM

I was listening to the DCC The Doors on my iPod on the way to work recently. I had never noticed what a bad stereo mix this is. Basically it's only Morrison in the center. Robbie and Manzarek are on one channel and Densmore and Manzarek's keyboard bass are on the other channel. Once in a long while there is a part with piano in the center. That is tough to listen to with headphones. Having only Morrison in the center channel makes him sound very uninvolved with the rest of the music.

Why wouldn't they mix it with the drums, the keyboard bass, and Morrison in the center, and Robbie on the left and Manzarek on the right? That would sound pretty good. I guess one answer may have to do with how the tracks were laid down. If the focus was mono, then they wouldn't have taken much care as to how it was recorded, and Manzarek's organ and Robbie's guitar could be on the same track. Any thoughts?

LarryDavenport · 12-07-2005, 10:40 AM

Didn't Steve do the DCC?

**Steve Hoffman** · 12-07-2005, 10:41 AM

It's been discussed many, many times here why this album was recorded the way it was. Do a search.

another side · 12-07-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

It's been discussed many, many times here why this album was recorded the way it was. Do a search.

Sorry, Steve, but this is one of those things that is hard to search for. I did do a search, but I could not easily find a discussion on how the album was recorded other than that the vocals were overdubbed and a session bass player overdubbed some bits as well.

MikeP5877 · 12-07-2005, 11:02 AM

Funny, I used to hate the stereo mix until I bought the DCC CD last year. I always thought it sounded anemic on vinyl and the early CD issue. The DCC sounds so full-bodied in comparison.

another side · 12-07-2005, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Perko

Funny, I used to hate the stereo mix until I bought the DCC CD last year. I always thought it sounded anemic on vinyl and the early CD issue. The DCC sounds so full-bodied in comparison.

Don't get me wrong. The DCC sounds great. It's just the mix that is odd.

another side · 12-07-2005, 11:18 AM

So I did a bit more of a thorough search, and as I suspected the album was recorded on 4 track. Someone please correct me if I have this wrong. From what I understand, the basic track was laid down with organ, guitar, drums and a "scratch" vocal. I would assume one track each. Then a bounce was made, I would guess to free up two tracks. Robbie Krieger and Manzarek were put in one track 1, Densmore on on track 2, the overdubbed bass on track 3 and Morrison on the final track. Is that right?

**Lord Hawthorne** · 12-07-2005, 11:19 AM

It was recorded on a four-track machine. If I recall correctly, you could only pan one track on the original board, so they chose the vocal. The 5.1 mix comes out next year.

Grant · 12-07-2005, 11:43 AM

I kind of like it. But, then, I have never heard the mono version. I'm judging by the undecoded HDCD CDs in the boxed set...

another side · 12-07-2005, 11:51 AM

**Steve Hoffman** · 12-07-2005, 11:53 AM

Oh, God, stop me from typing this yet again. Nope. FINGERS TYPING; CANNOT STOP!!

First four track pass:

Live, track one: Organ bass/drums
Sel-Sync, track two: First lead vocal
Sel-Sync, track three: Second lead vocal or instrument o/d
Live, track four: guitar/organ

FIRST BOUNCE:

Track one: Organ bass/Drums
Track two: Two vocal tracks combined
Track three: Bass guitar o/d
Track four: guitar/organ

MIXED IN STEREO:

Track one to left channel
Track two to center
Track four to either side or middle
Track four to right channel.

All except THE END which was:

1: drums/organ bass
2. live lead vocal
3. organ
4. guitar

another side · 12-07-2005, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Oh, God, stop me from typing this yet again. Nope. FINGERS TYPING; CANNOT STOP!!

First four track pass:

Live, track one: Organ bass/drums
Sel-Sync, track two: First lead vocal
Sel-Sync, track three: Second lead vocal or instrument o/d
Live, track four: guitar/organ

FIRST BOUNCE:

Track one: Organ bass/Drums
Track two: Two vocal tracks combined
Track three: Bass guitar o/d
Track four: guitar/organ

MIXED IN STEREO:

Track one to left channel
Track two to center
Track four to either side or middle
Track four to right channel.

All except THE END which was:

1: drums/organ bass
2. live lead vocal
3. organ
4. guitar

Thanks, Steve. I just deleted my post that says essentially the same thing, except that I hadn't figured on the two vocals being bounced on the first bounce. So there was never a chance to separate Krieger and Manzarek since they were on the same track to begin with.

**Steve Hoffman** · 12-07-2005, 11:59 AM

The album was originally felt to be finished with the first four-track tape.

They had second thoughts.

They did the bounce just to make a blank track to add the bass guitar (which I feel was truly needed). Essentially this album was mixed during the four-track to four-track bounce.

another side · 12-07-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

The album was originally felt to be finished with the first four-track tape.

They had second thoughts.

They did the bounce just to make a blank track to add the bass guitar (which I feel was truly needed). Essentially this album was mixed during the four-track to four-track bounce.

So that's why the combined the tracks the way they did. It's a pity, though, it would be great to hear Krieger and Manzarek out of different speakers. That would sound great.

**Steve Hoffman** · 12-07-2005, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by another side

So that's why the combined the tracks the way they did. It's a pity, though, it would be great to hear Krieger and Manzarek out of different speakers. That would sound great.

Well, let me just say this. On the next album they went eight-track so you got your guitar/organ separation but to many (including me) their music took on a hard, thin edge, totally due to the new solid state technology. I prefer the tube magic sound of the first album.

I had to work very hard in mastering to get any warmth out of STRANGE DAYS, etc.

Grant · 12-07-2005, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Oh, God, stop me from typing this yet again. Nope. FINGERS TYPING; CANNOT STOP!!

Have Karla tie your fingers with tape whenever you get that urge again!

LarryDavenport · 12-07-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Oh, God, stop me from typing this yet again. Nope. FINGERS TYPING; CANNOT STOP!!

That's what "cut & paste" is for Steve. :p

Jose Jones · 12-07-2005, 12:21 PM

Is there any kind of consensus then, that the first Doors album has the best (ie, "warmest") sonics?

I'm not enough of a Doors fan to to be able to instantly hear in my head the differences between the albums. I do recall though, that "20th Century Fox" had some nice deep bass notes that I don't remember hearing in subsequent albums....

Jose Jones · 12-07-2005, 12:25 PM

Somebody mentioned a forthcoming 5.1 mix of the first album......if the organ and guitar are on the same track, what is the point of doing a surround-sound mix? I don't get it. It doesn't seem like there are enough discreet parts to make that kind of a mix.

another side · 12-07-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Well, let me just say this. On the next album they went eight-track so you got your guitar/organ separation but to many (including me) their music took on a hard, thin edge, totally due to the new solid state technology. I prefer the tube magic sound of the first album.

I had to work very hard in mastering to get any warmth out of STRANGE DAYS, etc.

I hadn't thought of it that way. But you're right, the first album has a totally different sound/warmth to it.

12-07-2005, 10:22 AM	#1
another side delta mono™ Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 15,318	The Doors s/t stereo mix. What were they thinking? I was listening to the DCC The Doors on my iPod on the way to work recently. I had never noticed what a bad stereo mix this is. Basically it's only Morrison in the center. Robbie and Manzarek are on one channel and Densmore and Manzarek's keyboard bass are on the other channel. Once in a long while there is a part with piano in the center. That is tough to listen to with headphones. Having only Morrison in the center channel makes him sound very uninvolved with the rest of the music. Why wouldn't they mix it with the drums, the keyboard bass, and Morrison in the center, and Robbie on the left and Manzarek on the right? That would sound pretty good. I guess one answer may have to do with how the tracks were laid down. If the focus was mono, then they wouldn't have taken much care as to how it was recorded, and Manzarek's organ and Robbie's guitar could be on the same track. Any thoughts? __________________ - I ain't looking to compete with you

12-07-2005, 11:18 AM	#7
another side delta mono™ Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 15,318	So I did a bit more of a thorough search, and as I suspected the album was recorded on 4 track. Someone please correct me if I have this wrong. From what I understand, the basic track was laid down with organ, guitar, drums and a "scratch" vocal. I would assume one track each. Then a bounce was made, I would guess to free up two tracks. Robbie Krieger and Manzarek were put in one track 1, Densmore on on track 2, the overdubbed bass on track 3 and Morrison on the final track. Is that right? __________________ - I ain't looking to compete with you

12-07-2005, 11:19 AM	#8
Lord Hawthorne ...the Once Red, but Now Gort! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 11,841	It was recorded on a four-track machine. If I recall correctly, you could only pan one track on the original board, so they chose the vocal. The 5.1 mix comes out next year. __________________ What if the hokey-pokey really is what it's all about?

12-07-2005, 11:51 AM	#10
another side delta mono™ Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 15,318	. __________________ - I ain't looking to compete with you

12-07-2005, 12:21 PM	#18
Jose Jones Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 7,410	Is there any kind of consensus then, that the first Doors album has the best (ie, "warmest") sonics? I'm not enough of a Doors fan to to be able to instantly hear in my head the differences between the albums. I do recall though, that "20th Century Fox" had some nice deep bass notes that I don't remember hearing in subsequent albums.... __________________ "...she's as cute as a squirrel's nut.."

12-07-2005, 10:40 AM	#2
LarryDavenport Forum Addict Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 1,747	Didn't Steve do the DCC?

12-07-2005, 10:41 AM	#3
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,271	It's been discussed many, many times here why this album was recorded the way it was. Do a search.

12-07-2005, 11:02 AM	#5
MikeP5877 Micro dynamic Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Northeast Ohio Posts: 16,940	Funny, I used to hate the stereo mix until I bought the DCC CD last year. I always thought it sounded anemic on vinyl and the early CD issue. The DCC sounds so full-bodied in comparison.

12-07-2005, 11:43 AM	#9
Grant Forum member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: If the rain comes, they run and hide their heads... Posts: 72,946	I kind of like it. But, then, I have never heard the mono version. I'm judging by the undecoded HDCD CDs in the boxed set...

12-07-2005, 11:53 AM	#11
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,271	Oh, God, stop me from typing this yet again. Nope. FINGERS TYPING; CANNOT STOP!! First four track pass: Live, track one: Organ bass/drums Sel-Sync, track two: First lead vocal Sel-Sync, track three: Second lead vocal or instrument o/d Live, track four: guitar/organ FIRST BOUNCE: Track one: Organ bass/Drums Track two: Two vocal tracks combined Track three: Bass guitar o/d Track four: guitar/organ MIXED IN STEREO: Track one to left channel Track two to center Track four to either side or middle Track four to right channel. All except THE END which was: 1: drums/organ bass 2. live lead vocal 3. organ 4. guitar

12-07-2005, 11:59 AM	#13
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,271	The album was originally felt to be finished with the first four-track tape. They had second thoughts. They did the bounce just to make a blank track to add the bass guitar (which I feel was truly needed). Essentially this album was mixed during the four-track to four-track bounce.

12-07-2005, 12:25 PM	#19
Jose Jones Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 7,410	Somebody mentioned a forthcoming 5.1 mix of the first album......if the organ and guitar are on the same track, what is the point of doing a surround-sound mix? I don't get it. It doesn't seem like there are enough discreet parts to make that kind of a mix. __________________ "...she's as cute as a squirrel's nut.."

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