I keep hearing all about these "Target" CDs...

nukevor · 11-09-2005, 12:59 AM

...there has to be a reason why they are so collectible. Anybody here wanna put forth a cliff notes verion of the story?!

**Steve Hoffman** · 11-09-2005, 01:20 AM

No idea, really. Painted labels, maybe?

Some sound pretty great, some really stink.

ALL OF THEM SEEM TO BE MASTERED COMPLETELY FLAT. In other words, a Target CD will sound EXACTLY like the tape that was pulled to make it. If the correct tape is pulled, it will sound good. If a ninth generation cutting dub was pulled, it will sound lackluster.

These are all mastered without any signal processing whatsoever.

My Pretenders Target will be buried with me. Many others also. Just as many were mastered with inferior LP cutting dubs....

I only have about 5 in my CD collection.. Dumped the rest.

A flip of the coin but the goodies are good.

Mal · 11-09-2005, 01:21 AM

Firstly, they were only made between about 1984 and 1985 (is that right experts?). I have been buying CDs in England since about 1987 and have NEVER seen one. I also never saw one on my many trips to Amoeba in LA over a 7 month period. The only one I have was an ebay purchase of the Atlantic Abba Greatest Hits Vol 2 CD and I had no idea it would be a target until it arrived (never even knew it was issued as a target!).

I guess they were W German pressings made for the US since they are so rare over here?

Secondly, they look cool! My favourite CDs are W German Polygram pressings that are aluminium all the way to the centre and have groovy labels like the "atomic" Mercury label etc.. The targets come close - it's something about the way they look so dated already (in a good way). They are like antiques!

Modern discs are so dull. A good example is ABC's The Lexicon of Love. The original W German pressing was on a PDO pressed disc (aluminium all the way to the centre) and had the lovely "atomic" label. The remaster that replaced it was black with minimal white text......

Finally, those of us that despise modern mastering techniques crave discs made in the early/mid 80s since these usually are mastered without gimmicks (digital compression, NR, etc) and although the tapes used aren't always 1st gen (hardly ever in fact!) they are usually pretty good copies made in an age when people didn't tend to futz with the sound.

That's why I like many CDs pressed in the early days.

quicksrt · 11-09-2005, 01:27 AM

I think most stink. When I hear tape drop outs and excessive hiss, I don't care how natural it may sound musically, I begin looking elsewhere, and I keep on looking.

But I have heard a few titles that were issued as "new" releases in the target era, and they were fine. It's the old back catalog I never found appealing at all.

Scott J · 11-09-2005, 01:47 AM

I have had so many target CD's, and gotten rid of so many target CD's it's kind of ridiculous. I started buying CD's back in 1985-86 and a lot of my new CD purchases back then were targets. As newer versions came out, I would dump my targets and buy the newer versions. I still come across them in my travels, but I rarely hold onto them. Like Steve said, most of the targets I've owned and heard don't sound all that great. Not always bad, but usually not too good. I recently came across a Neil Young target of "Harvest" that was made in the U.S.. A pretty rare one. I thought it was kind of cool to have since it was a U.S. target and a part of me wanted to keep it, but then I thought I'm not a target collector, so I'll post it in the classifieds here and let it go to a home where it would be better appreciated. I'll probably do the same with most targets I come across in the future.

KeithH · 11-09-2005, 03:43 AM

I collect them because they are rare, they look cool, and because most of them sound very good. It's fun hunting through the used bins for them. Just when you think the store is a dud and should be closed for eternity, boom! A rare target!

GabeG · 11-09-2005, 05:23 AM

The only one I've retained is Rickie Lee Jones. I've never seen the Pretenders disc.

vinylrec · 11-09-2005, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithH

I collect them because they are rare, they look cool, and because most of them sound very good. It's fun hunting through the used bins for them. Just when you think the store is a dud and should be closed for eternity, boom! A rare target!

That's right. It goes back to man's primal urge to hunt and gather

vanmeterannie · 11-09-2005, 05:40 AM

I have several targets, but none blow me away...Eagles' Long Run and On The Border, Led Zeppelin IV and probaby another one or two I can't recall. I do remember 20+ years ago hearing a friend's copy of both Ratt's Out of the Cellar and Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy and thinking they sounded really good.

Andreas · 11-09-2005, 06:10 AM

Some target CDs have the same mastering as later standard CDs, e.g. LZ IV and Houses Of The Holy. So in terms of sound quality, there are often easier ways to obtain those unmanipulated masterings.

tootull · 11-09-2005, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

No idea, really. Painted labels, maybe?

Some sound pretty great, some really stink.

ALL OF THEM SEEM TO BE MASTERED COMPLETELY FLAT. In other words, a Target CD will sound EXACTLY like the tape that was pulled to make it. If the correct tape is pulled, it will sound good. If a ninth generation cutting dub was pulled, it will sound lackluster.

These are all mastered without any signal processing whatsoever.

My Pretenders Target will be buried with me. Fleetwood Mac/Rumours was also mastered with the original Analog master. Many others also. Just as many were mastered with inferior LP cutting dubs....

I only have about 5 in my CD collection.. Dumped the rest.

A flip of the coin but the goodies are good.

Totally agree! Dumped some! Kept some! Fleetwood Mac/Rumours was used as demonstration CD in the 80s to promote the medium!

"These are all mastered without any signal processing whatsoever."

Please explain? No noise reduction used?

Would this be like a needle drop recording on a CDR deck?

Thanks!

Mal

'Broadsword & The Beast' CCD 1380 'Made In West Germany' (1983) should be considered as a Target CD. Transfered at a very low volume.
I like the sound of this one turned up loud.

RayistaGeoff · 11-09-2005, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mal

Firstly, they were only made between about 1984 and 1985 (is that right experts?). I have been buying CDs in England since about 1987 and have NEVER seen one.

You obviously need to get up North, mate!

I've only been looking for them for a few months, and maybe it's just beginner's luck, but I've seen a bunch just in and around Newcastle -- Christine McVie (s/t), the Eagles (Hotel CA), Christopher Cross (s/t, both the full and half-targets), Prince (Around the World and a half-target Purple Rain). Bought most of 'em too, paid about 5-6 pounds each. They are out there, I'd have thought at Record Fairs particularly.

Geoff

ffracer · 11-09-2005, 06:27 AM

The targets look really cool, as do the various fun designs that PolyGram put out early (Atomic, Vertigos, etc.). I guess that's just one of those things that gets people interested. It is like the mini-LP thing. Mini-LPs do nothing for me (don't like paper packaging -but do like the LP notes), but I know why people buy them and understand their interest.

Check out Ralph's amazing site on targets. I don't have the link on this PC.

Evan · 11-09-2005, 07:08 AM

Like many have stated. Some sound great. Some really sucklike my Echo and the Bunnymen "Ocean Rain" . I keep the ones that sound good to me and dump the others. You know, we have a list of "good" MFSL CDs. We should really have a "good" list of Target CDs. Heck, we may already have it. I have never looked for it

**Steve Hoffman** · 11-09-2005, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tootull

Totally agree! Dumped some! Kept some! Fleetwood Mac/Rumours was used as demonstration CD in the 80s to promote the medium!

"These are all mastered without any signal processing whatsoever."

Please explain? No noise reduction used?

Would this be like a needle drop recording on a CDR deck?

Thanks!

Mal

'Broadsword & The Beast' CCD 1380 'Made In West Germany' (1983) should be considered as a Target CD. Transfered at a very low volume.
I like the sound of this one turned up loud.

No noise reduction used. Neutral transfers, totally dependent on the sound of the analog tape pulled. A HIT OR MISS SITUATION. The hits are good, the misses are pretty OK, not too bad. The stinkers stink. Just like anything else in life. I think people collect them because they are old and sort of wacky looking. Nothing to do with sound quality.

gener8tr · 11-09-2005, 07:14 AM

The collectible and nostalgia aspects have me hooked. These are the first CD's to to come out of the PolyGram plant in Hanover, West Germany in 1984. First generation stuff!

A 1962 VW Beetle certainly doesn't have the performance of the 2002 version, but it's a whole lot cooler (in my opinion). Same principle.

KeithH · 11-09-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tootull

'Broadsword & The Beast' CCD 1380 'Made In West Germany' (1983) should be considered as a Target CD.

No it should not. This has been discussed here many times. The term "Target CD" only applies to the original WEA discs with the target design on the label side. The term does not apply to all first pressings. This is a target CD:

tootull · 11-09-2005, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithH

No it should not. This has been discussed here many times. The term "Target CD" only applies to the original WEA discs with the target design on the label side. The term does not apply to all first pressings. This is a target CD:

Of course you are completely correct, I'm trying to sneak Tull into the WEA group!

The CCD 1380 (Made in West Germany) should be considered a good target for Tull fans!

tootull · 11-09-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

No noise reduction used. Neutral transfers, totally dependent on the sound of the analog tape pulled. A HIT OR MISS SITUATION. The hits are good, the misses are pretty OK, not too bad. The stinkers stink. Just like anything else in life. I think people collect them because they are old and sort of wacky looking. Nothing to do with sound quality.

Thanks Steve!

Questions open to all

What year did noise reduction come into (widespread?) use on CDs?
Was WEA the only company releasing CDs in this form?
What major labels are more or less likely to use noise reduction on CDs? Who was first?
What artists of the mastering world hate to use "noise reduction" as opposed to those that seem to use it more? who?

ashlee5 · 11-09-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tootull

Of course you are completely correct, I'm trying to sneak Tull into the WEA group!

The CCD 1380 (Made in West Germany) should be considered a good target for Tull fans!

After reading this comment, look what I see during a lunchtime visit to a local CD store. The inlay and booklet both said [Made in West Germany] and the disc sounded just as tootull described when I played it in my car. Then I take it out and find out the disc itself is made in the good ole US of A.

Should I return this and look for the genuine W. Germany copy or is the mastering the same?

11-09-2005, 12:59 AM	#1
nukevor Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunnyvale, CA (for now) Posts: 4,413	I keep hearing all about these "Target" CDs... ...there has to be a reason why they are so collectible. Anybody here wanna put forth a cliff notes verion of the story?!

11-09-2005, 01:21 AM	#3
Mal Phorum Physicist Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A rock in a landslide... Posts: 10,488	Firstly, they were only made between about 1984 and 1985 (is that right experts?). I have been buying CDs in England since about 1987 and have NEVER seen one. I also never saw one on my many trips to Amoeba in LA over a 7 month period. The only one I have was an ebay purchase of the Atlantic Abba Greatest Hits Vol 2 CD and I had no idea it would be a target until it arrived (never even knew it was issued as a target!). I guess they were W German pressings made for the US since they are so rare over here? Secondly, they look cool! My favourite CDs are W German Polygram pressings that are aluminium all the way to the centre and have groovy labels like the "atomic" Mercury label etc.. The targets come close - it's something about the way they look so dated already (in a good way). They are like antiques! Modern discs are so dull. A good example is ABC's The Lexicon of Love. The original W German pressing was on a PDO pressed disc (aluminium all the way to the centre) and had the lovely "atomic" label. The remaster that replaced it was black with minimal white text...... Finally, those of us that despise modern mastering techniques crave discs made in the early/mid 80s since these usually are mastered without gimmicks (digital compression, NR, etc) and although the tapes used aren't always 1st gen (hardly ever in fact!) they are usually pretty good copies made in an age when people didn't tend to futz with the sound. That's why I like many CDs pressed in the early days. __________________ We must remember that art is art. Still, on the other hand, water is water, isn't it? And east is east, and west is west, and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce, it tastes much more like prunes than rhubarb does.

11-09-2005, 03:43 AM	#6
KeithH CD collector, and so much more Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: It varies. Posts: 24,279	I collect them because they are rare, they look cool, and because most of them sound very good. It's fun hunting through the used bins for them. Just when you think the store is a dud and should be closed for eternity, boom! A rare target! __________________ www.keithhirsch.com

11-09-2005, 06:27 AM	#13
ffracer Forum Icon $ffracer's Avatar$ Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: near Watkins Glen, NY USA Posts: 2,318	The targets look really cool, as do the various fun designs that PolyGram put out early (Atomic, Vertigos, etc.). I guess that's just one of those things that gets people interested. It is like the mini-LP thing. Mini-LPs do nothing for me (don't like paper packaging -but do like the LP notes), but I know why people buy them and understand their interest. Check out Ralph's amazing site on targets. I don't have the link on this PC.
$ffracer is offline$

11-09-2005, 07:08 AM	#14
Evan Forum Addict Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Petal, Mississippi Posts: 1,825	Like many have stated. Some sound great. Some really sucklike my Echo and the Bunnymen "Ocean Rain" . I keep the ones that sound good to me and dump the others. You know, we have a list of "good" MFSL CDs. We should really have a "good" list of Target CDs. Heck, we may already have it. I have never looked for it __________________ Reality is highly subjective.

11-09-2005, 01:20 AM	#2
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,603	No idea, really. Painted labels, maybe? Some sound pretty great, some really stink. ALL OF THEM SEEM TO BE MASTERED COMPLETELY FLAT. In other words, a Target CD will sound EXACTLY like the tape that was pulled to make it. If the correct tape is pulled, it will sound good. If a ninth generation cutting dub was pulled, it will sound lackluster. These are all mastered without any signal processing whatsoever. My Pretenders Target will be buried with me. Many others also. Just as many were mastered with inferior LP cutting dubs.... I only have about 5 in my CD collection.. Dumped the rest. A flip of the coin but the goodies are good.

11-09-2005, 01:27 AM	#4
quicksrt Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: City of Angels Posts: 8,211	I think most stink. When I hear tape drop outs and excessive hiss, I don't care how natural it may sound musically, I begin looking elsewhere, and I keep on looking. But I have heard a few titles that were issued as "new" releases in the target era, and they were fine. It's the old back catalog I never found appealing at all.

11-09-2005, 01:47 AM	#5
Scott J Forum Hall of Fame Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere between L.A. and San Diego Posts: 8,672	I have had so many target CD's, and gotten rid of so many target CD's it's kind of ridiculous. I started buying CD's back in 1985-86 and a lot of my new CD purchases back then were targets. As newer versions came out, I would dump my targets and buy the newer versions. I still come across them in my travels, but I rarely hold onto them. Like Steve said, most of the targets I've owned and heard don't sound all that great. Not always bad, but usually not too good. I recently came across a Neil Young target of "Harvest" that was made in the U.S.. A pretty rare one. I thought it was kind of cool to have since it was a U.S. target and a part of me wanted to keep it, but then I thought I'm not a target collector, so I'll post it in the classifieds here and let it go to a home where it would be better appreciated. I'll probably do the same with most targets I come across in the future.

11-09-2005, 05:23 AM	#7
GabeG Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 2,030	The only one I've retained is Rickie Lee Jones. I've never seen the Pretenders disc.

11-09-2005, 05:40 AM	#9
vanmeterannie Forum Icon Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Wild, Wonderful West Virginia Posts: 2,142	I have several targets, but none blow me away...Eagles' Long Run and On The Border, Led Zeppelin IV and probaby another one or two I can't recall. I do remember 20+ years ago hearing a friend's copy of both Ratt's Out of the Cellar and Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy and thinking they sounded really good.

11-09-2005, 06:10 AM	#10
Andreas Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Frankfurt, Germany Posts: 7,551	Some target CDs have the same mastering as later standard CDs, e.g. LZ IV and Houses Of The Holy. So in terms of sound quality, there are often easier ways to obtain those unmanipulated masterings.

11-09-2005, 07:14 AM	#16
gener8tr Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Vancouver, WA USA Posts: 5,437	The collectible and nostalgia aspects have me hooked. These are the first CD's to to come out of the PolyGram plant in Hanover, West Germany in 1984. First generation stuff! A 1962 VW Beetle certainly doesn't have the performance of the 2002 version, but it's a whole lot cooler (in my opinion). Same principle.

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