Statement from Eroc...

regarding to LOUDER THAN LOUD!


Somebody told me somebody says my remasterings are „louder than loud“. Right you are! If a band hits the stage and dares to play their guitars over something called „guitar amplifier“, they just want to be „loud“. That’s what has to be whipped out of any sound conserve to be played on any jerky home-equipment. And every home-equipment is „jerky“ compared to a full blown P.A. on a rock concert. Yes, my remasterings are loud. And if bands like Slipknot, Machine Head or Slayer would have had their productions mastered by me, they probably would sell some copies and finally get the recognition they deserve.

But – rock guitars and power-drums are one side of the leaf. On the other hand I have remastered gorgious piano-concerts, operas, historic material like Maria Callas and dozens of acts and bands from the great „Swingin’ Years“. They wanted to sound natural and breathing in all of their time. And that’s what I tried to get out of the recordings. Nothing more and nothing less. The limit there e.g. is: when the tears start to run down my face during „No other love“ from Jo Stafford (Backline, Popfile, American Recordings, Vol. 15, #13).

Another one claims: „One thing Eroc does that is incredibly annoying is mess with EQ during songs. I have read that he doesn't use no-noise and prefers digital EQ for noise reduction.“ Shame on you my friend, you got your ears sleeping in a jar and the jar is under the bed. It’s not possible to mess with EQ’s „during“ a song, except you accept hard cuts from one part to the next. De-Noising by high-end-tayloring is for losers… I myself use several very clever and sophisticated de-noising programs, if necessary.

The art of de-noising is based only on knowledge and experience. I started out making active music in 1965. Those were the days of the good old VOX AC-30 guitar amplifier. And I finished my carreer as a musician and studio engineer and producer in 1999, to go on with analog and digital sound enhancement. I know all tape-recorders, starting with Revox G 36 in the mid 60’s and ending up with the OTARI MTR-90 equiped with Dolby SR in the late 90’s. I had them all: Revox, Studers, Scullys, Telefunkens, Otaris, Lyrecs, Ampexes and so on. And I did record them all: Vox, Marshall, Ampeg, Shaller, Echolette, Peavey, Acoustic and hundreds more, whose names I don’t recall. So you can bet, I know a little bit about the noise problem on stage and in the studio.

It all ends up in one single example: listen to the CD Repertoire REP UK 1010, The Troggs, From Nowhere, Wild Thing (#01). And listen carefully when Reg Presley sings „Wild thing, I think you move me“. Listen to what happens in the gaps. Listen to what I could whip out with all my knowledge and experience. You will hear… noise! And that is the original noise of a VOX AC-30 with all it’s beautiful valve character atmosphere. But you won’t hear any tape-hiss. That’s clever de-noising: keep what is an original part of the performance and the music, but get rid of any technical rubbish like tape-noise and other things nobody ever wanted and needed. Got the picture? For the „art of de-noising“ you must know all (!) kinds of noises ever happening in the world of music and recording. I had more than 40 years to learn.

No further comments, have to get back to work now. If anyone wants to know what I have done so far, ...go to www.eroc.de, then choose "mastering-ranch" and there switch on the radio-scale to "Produktionen", there you can see most of my remasterings during the passed 6 years. The site will be updated in december and probably available in English next year.

Cheers!

Lieutenant Eroc, EMR Germany

 

This speaks for itself.

 

Oh dear. Who is this idiot?

 

Ah, it's about time you stirred the pot Eroc - always makes for an interesting discussion at least .

For those who want a good read about the pros (there aren't any!) and cons of using digital signal processing on music recordings - in particular digital NR then go here:

About noise and de-noizing... from Eroc

Eroc's thoughts for Malc S...

I'll keep out of the "loudness" debate. You can probably guess my feelings on the matter if you read these other threads.....

 

I happen to own the Throggs disc that Eroc mastered and listened to Wild Thing. Then listened to an original mastering of Wild Thing. The noises he refers to are not only clearly audible on the original recording but also much clearer than his version. Also, the Eroc version is louder and the bass in particular is boosted/homogenized. Kick drum, bass guitar meld together and almost obscure the snare hits.

YMMV

 

I still think those Repetoire Pretty Things CD's sound flippin' lousy! Same for the Zombies.

The proof is in the pudding so to speak. The jive won't wash.

Talk about Wah Wah!!!!

 

Hi Eroc,
can you say: dy-na-mics?

Uh huh, I thought so...

 

I think his "Jumbo" cd by Grobschnitt sounds fantastic.

What do others think of this title?

 

i like the Patto reissues (cardboard digipaks) on vertigo/repertoire u.k. i hear tape hiss. i wish i had something to compare them to other than my beat-up U.S. hold your fire, but i'm not willing to shell out the dough for an o.g. u.k. pressing. this is a very revealing post. thanks, claus.

-eddie

EDIT: no, it's not tape hiss i hear, it's the snare rattling to the amplification of the live room recording. just checked.

 

Those Pattos you have were probably mastered from the previous Repertoire CDs, which were very good needle drops.

 

Eroc,

Whether you did it with EQ or "several very clever and sophisticated de-noising programs," I can hear hiss "pump" in at the beginning of "Broken Barricades" during the soft piano bit. In fact, my ears are not "sleeping in a jar" but wide open. You use noise reduction all the time. And you even take out hiss in softer sections and lighten up in louder sections. This is all easily noticeable to anyone who cares about music and is a member here. Unlike the MFSL edition of Procol's _Borken Barricades_ , where the hiss is constant as the soft piano opening begins and then the band joins, you couldn't leave well enough alone and allow Brooker's piano to retain its warm tone, you just had to take out some tape hiss. I understand Rep apparently only got DATs of the Procol catalog, but this is still a poor choice, in my opinion.

You are a brilliant drummer and a phenomenal musician, but your mastering is a different matter. Instead of challenging everyone here perhaps you ought to consider what people are telling you and stop making analog music sound digitally processed and compressed?

You know more than I will ever know, but when it comes to ears, it is not mine that are living in a "jar."

 

Claus,

Can you tell your friend Eroc that, while we appreciate his enthusiasm, we don't think his use, or anyone else's use of noise reduction on tape sounds good, please?

 

Eroc is many things, but being an idiot isn't one of them. I don't agree with his mastering techniques, but he was a drummer/composer in Grobschnitt in the 70s and 80s, a highly complex progressive rock group who were one of the most legendary and successful bands in Germany. He also released solo albums of highly sophisticated electronic music in the 70s, did an album with guitar wizard Hans Reichel, and more. Since becoming a mastering engineer he has mastered hundreds upon hundreds of recordings.

But his belief that he can remove all tape hiss and then telling me I have "ears in a jar" is downright hilarious. The guy has no clue how to master music. All he does is ruin it.

 

Claus,

I agree with Grant. And could you also let Eroc know that even on our " jerky home equipment" we have volume controls. So he doesn't need to jack everything up to 11 and then compress it so it sounds loud when played low. Thanks.

 

Perhaps if Eroc invested the amount of money in his home system that he has in his mastering studio he would understand us a lot better on this.

 

Problem is, in my unscientific research over time, I have found that people set their volume controls at one spot and expect all CDs will play at that same level. They get upset if they have to actually alter that setting. Believe it or not, when they pop in a CD with known loud music, they want it at one level at the "3" setting. When they put on known soft, mellow music, they want it soft and mellow, but still clearly audible at the "3" setting. That's how the mind of the casual listener is. I've tried to reason with them, but people DO want the volume and EQ built into the CD, and they don't like hiss! If they use a changer or jukebox software, iPod, or something similar, they don't want to fool with the volume. Why? They are going to use it as background noise, and don't want to be botherd with the sound as they talk on the phone or whatever.

Seems to me that the companies are giving the consumer exactly what they want, i'm afraid. After all, the lawyers and accountants who run the companies, and their staffs ARE casual listeners.....and they probably all own "jerky" systems.

 

Actualy until today I thought of Eroc as Saruman of mastering - he said all the right things in his interviews but does it all wrong (I'm yet to hear a decent mastering from him). Now we have real Eroc talking - I guess I can replace Saruman with Sauron now!

P.S. Thus said I listened to the first Grobschnitt record a few days ago (mastered by the maestro himself unfortunately) and was enjoying every moment of his drumming. And his solo on the bonus track. Man he was good at that!

 

Right you are! We call it "masking effect". It occurs when a slight hiss is "behind" the original signal. Then it sounds somehow clearer. That's what happens often by comparing de-noised remasters with un-de-noised remasters. I wiped away only the tape-hiss, so you'll hear the noises of the guitar amp as they were in the studio back then, without any high end colouring by the tape-hiss.

Yes, the bass was slightly boosted to get the track closer to what they intended in their 3-hours recording-session back then. I play kick-drum myself for more than 40 years now, I wanna hear it on the records. And yes, it "melts" a little, because they gave a damn on that back then. We did it better in the 80's and 90's.

But - who ever bought a Troggs' record because of the snare and kick drum...

Sincerely,

Lt. Eroc

 

Hi Mal,

nice to hear from you again - the loudness always is relatively. We got a great AM radio-station in Europe, broadcasting from the Netherlands, called "Arrow Rock Radio". They're playing all that wonderful stuff from the 60's and 70's and 80's for 24 hours a day. And I can tell when they are playing my remasters, and they do it very often...

So, I think it's necessary to get a good level on the CD for airplay and for comparison with today's productions. I'm releasing the Grobschnitt-Story (my own band from the 70's) in first row for the kids who never saw us on stage. And they want the music to "come over" between Slipknot and Murderdollz. If a CD doesn't hit them in the face, they just switch over to the next one. So I think it's very necessary to push the loudness carefully up to - 0.1 dB beyond digital "0", to catch todays audience.

We old bones better should listen to our old vinyls and o-tapes for the rest of our lifes. That will satisfie us much more than any 16-Bit CD rubbish...

Sincerely,


- Lt. Eroc

 

Yes mate, you're right! They sound pretty "lousy". And that obviously covers the opinion of the band. So the Pretty Things took a little of their pretty time, wrote a letter to
Repertoire Records, thanking us most gratefully for the "great remasters" of their
whole catalogue. Signed sincerely with best wishes by each single member of this pretty
band. It's still hanging at the wall in the Hamburg office of Repertoire.

And similar things happened with e.g. Chris Dreja (The Yardbirds), Mike Harrison
(Spooky Tooth), Don Craine (Downliner's Sect), Eddy Pumer (Kaleidoscope), Alvin
Lee, John Walker, Achim Reichel and many others I have remastered. So, are we artists
in our taste still so far ahead of the average fan and consumer?

C'mon - let's swallow down the rest of the pudding: The Zombies wasn't remastered
by me. And also Roger McGuinn wasn't, although it's to be read on the sleeve.

But finally it all will be up to YOU now, with your golden ears and equipment - starting this summer Repertoire won't print any more on their DCs if and by whom they are remastered. The boss decided that because he wants to turn out his company as "one team".

Sincerely,


- Lt. Eroc

 

Hi Jeff,

great to hear from you. Repertoire wants to sell their records NOW, and they want to have them polished up as much as possible. And NOW we have got software to get rid of tape noise. So I have to do it like this with all good and bads this software offers. And I always give my best and my heart to "ruin" the music, you can bet.

Concerning Procol Harum: Gary Brooker likes my remasterings of his album a lot. He is very satisfied with them. He didn't like the results when Repertoire gave the tracks to another masterer before. And there are many many more artists who wrote in to me and were really happy to hear their stuff now much more like they intended back then in the studios.

Sorry about the quotation "sleeping in a jar" - I always liked this phrase from Frank Zappa. Of course you listen carefully. That's what we all do. And I would be the happiest if finally someone developes a digital software which removes tape-hiss without any artefacts...

Sincerely,


- Lt. Eroc

 

Well, I don't think that FM Acoustics is a cheap system, and Reson Licon and Altman anti-jitter clocks and digital treatment on 64 bits / 384 kHz is not a "home system technology" - and who else of the average young and old music-fan can afford such gear? Most people are interested in the music and in the sound to come over and catch them. That's why recordings in the studio are produced by using artificial compression and reverb and exciters and all that crap.

Pop music NEVER was intended to sound "natural" on a record. Pop music has hundreds of coloured spot-lights over it's heads, it needs to be loud and sparkling and "great" sounding. Nobody ever cares about hiss and distortion and azimuths, except we few "golden ears".

As I use to say: we old bones should refer to good old vinyl, not to 16 bits CDs...

Sincerely,


- Lt. Eroc

 

I don't know your work Eroc, but it's cool of you to come on here and respond in a classy way.

 

We have a butcher in our village by the name of "Sauron" - man, does he make a good saussage!!!

To get a clear picture of my work, you'll have to listen to more than 600 remasters I did during the passed five years. You can see a few of them at www.eroc.de, there hit masteringranch and then "Produktionen". And NEVER forget: a remaster only can be build up on the original material the remasterer has at his hands...

Sincerely,


- Lt. Eroc