Steve: any comments on the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall concert release(s)?

[GregY]

I'm listening to this for the first time and reading through some threads here and at the organissimo forum. Alot of people don't like the most recent CD remaster from Columbia because of the excessive static and crackles. Tape hiss has never bothered me, even before I discovered this forum, but my brain can't tune out the crackles on this as easily as it can with tape hiss. It's a bit easier using headphones than speakers but I'm wondering what could be done to this material without compromising the sound quality, if anything.

Have you heard this release? Any comments on the material or what, if any, sensible remastering could be done?

Apparently there are other CD release, some of which attempt to clean up the sound using a light touch.

Comments from members are welcome too! Especially comments about the Sony/Columbia versus the Avid versus the Definitive release.

Here are some of the relevant threads at organissimo for those who are interested:
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/ind...showtopic=4172
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/ind...howtopic=18257
http://www.organissimo.org/forum/ind...howtopic=16061

EDIT: Just a personal note, I didn't think I'd like this at first. I bought it on the cheap through BMG because I've read so much about the music. Tonight, I popped it on and thought, "Oh no, is this old man music?" But it's not. It's fun.

[GregY]

Bump?

[MartinGr]

This was one of the most exciting re-releases for me ever, as this is the holy grail of swing music for me since I was around 9. It's almost as if they'd find a (of course non-existing) professional, complete recording of the Beatles at the Star Club in stereo. To be honest, the new clicks where disturbing at first, although the music sound a lot generations nearer.
But the booklet explains why Sony decided not to declick. I tried it for myself (with the Algorithmix/Samplitude-Declicker) and the results where not that bad. But something gets lost, definitely - I think even with Cedar or other high-end tools.
Now I'm used to hear the new version and I'll never go back.
But you've asked for Steve's opinion, not mine. I'd love to hear it as well...

Martin

[Steve Hoffman]

I have not heard it; I have the original early 1950's issue LP and the "Masterworks" late 1950's LP reissue. The first CD I heard of this stuff sucked so damn bad that I've never been brave enough to investigate another one..

Sorry. Can you put a few examples up for us to hear?

[R. Cat Conrad]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

I have not heard it; I have the original early 1950's issue LP and the "Masterworks" late 1950's LP reissue. The first CD I heard of this stuff sucked so damn bad that I've never been brave enough to investigate another one..

Sorry. Can you put a few examples up for us to hear?

No samples Steve, but this recommendation:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=music

This is the CD version to own; trust me. If any music is lost from the original transcription, I can't discern it. Some of the in-between track comments and announcements have been omitted which is a production choice that may or may not appeal to completists and hardline fans of Goodman's Carnegie Hall performances, but as a bonus on the 3rd disc there are a number of rare Goodman sides from 1945-47. Overall, it's an excellent production.

Read the comments from listeners; the only downgrades are given by those misposted for the noisier version Columbia put out as "definitive" (i.e., supposedly sourced from Benny Goodman's own private collection). It didn't define anything for me except the meanings of "pop" and "click!" I was very disappointed with that version and traded mine in a long time ago. The Avid release is the real McCoy. Very enjoyable listening experience; musical; alive.


at

[GregY]

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Can you put a few examples up for us to hear?

Here are 4 30-second samples from disc 1:
Track 02: Don't Be That Way -mp3- -wav-
Track 16: Body and Soul -mp3-
Track 19: The Man I Love -mp3-
Track 20: I Got Rhythm -mp3- -wav-

The mp3s are very high quality (lame --preset extreme) and will save on bandwidth for those who don't want to download uncompressed wavs.

[MartinGr]

Originally Posted by R. Cat Conrad

The Avid release is the real McCoy. Very enjoyable listening experience; musical; alive.

Sound interesting, I didn't konw about that. What are the sources? I suppose not the transcriptions from the 50s, that have been always around? Sony used some long lost 12" 78 RPMs for the remaster.

Martin

[R. Cat Conrad]

Originally Posted by MartinGr

Sound interesting, I didn't konw about that. What are the sources? I suppose not the transcriptions from the 50s, that have been always around? Sony used some long lost 12" 78 RPMs for the remaster.

Martin

Sorry Martin, can't help you there. Not much info is available, but I may check the liner notes again tomorrow just in case.

As far as I know these may also be from those rare transcriptions Goodman had in storage, just licensed by Avid and carefully de-clicked by an engineer who knows what he's doing. All I can tell you is that they sound great. It doesn't sound like a recent recording of course, but full and rich enough to fool you into thinking it's a live mono radio performance (i.e., one shouldn't expect modern full range dynamics in a period recording like this, even though the mid-bass may have been slightly tweaked to give Krupa's snare-drum a little extra snap).

The bottom line, this set of recordings just might have you up boogieing around the room like that loony guy in the computer commercial, at least 'til your wife catches you and calls for assitance from the mental hospital!

How much more pleasure can one derive from the recording of a legendary performance?


Cat

[C6H12O6]

EQ on the Schaap release is a little harsh. Even if you take out the pops and clicks it is still thin and pinched.

[MMM]

I agree - I find that to be more of a problem than the surface noise. Also, where bass sounds like it's added, it's just that - it sounds added, not natural. That said, I might have tried to remove a bit of the noise.

[Steve Hoffman]

Terrible sounding. Basic Mastering 101: Listen to a beat up copy of the old Columbia LP "The Great Benny Goodman". Listen to the Carnage Hall stuff on there (SING SING SING). Here how when Krupa wallops the bass drum you can feel it in your gut? They used the proper old equalization (probably Orthoacoustic). If you don't use the right old EQ you get a pinched sounding thin (with only the surface noise sounding correct) result. bad newzzzzzz.

[R. Cat Conrad]

...

FTR, just to make sure that everyone is clear on this, the version from Avid is NOT the same as the Schaap release of Goodman's Carnegie Hall performance; in fact, the Avid version bears no resemblance to the noisy Legacy release whatsoever.

THIS is the Schaap EQ'd version from Columbia Legacy (to be avoided):



This is the Avid release (recommended):



Sorry if this is redundent info, but the way this discussion has developed it could be confusing to those seeking information with all of the back and forth without this clarification. BTW, the remastering engineer for the Avid release is Dave Bennett and the recordings, according to the fine print on the back, from his personal collection. Re-pitching and digital assembly by David Wright.

I hope that this info is useful, and again, I highly recommend the Avid release!


Cat

[Steve Hoffman]

Thanks, Cat. Yes I was speaking of the version with the samples.

[GregY]

Sorry if this is redundent info

No problem, it definitely can get confusing. I'll seek out the Avid version for comparison.

Thanks Steve and everyone!