Sibilance on Eva Cassady Songbird S&P LP among others

Noticed the Paul Simon LP sibilance thread. Been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for some time now, but was hesitant because I'm afraid I'll be told the solution is "miike, you need a fancy-boy stereo system". Well one of the systems I tested the sibilant LPs on belongs to forum member jonathan_s. John has a Rega P25 turntable, Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge and a Musical Fidelity A 300 Amp.

Last year I purchased the Eva Cassidy Songbird 180 gram S&P LP (limited edition # 0700). I only recently cracked it open so my mother could hear it. She's a big fan. Was disappointed to hear sibilance on the LP. Later, I played the LP on John's system with the same results.

I also noticed sibilance some time ago on the Beatles A Hard Day's Night U.K. stereo LP. Sibilant songs include "And I Love Her", "I'm Happy Just To Dance With You" and "Things We Said Today". I was working on a mono/stereo needle drop when I first heard the sibilance.

There is also sibilance on the recent 180 gram Pink Floyd Dark Side Of The Moon LP.
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The test.

The Beatles A Hard Day's Night U.K. stereo LP. I tested 5 different pressings of the LP on 5 different turntables/cartridges. All stereo LPs had the same sibilance in the same spots. The mono LPs played beautifully with no sibilance whatsoever.

The pressings.

1. two box EMI/Parlophone U.K., both sides are a -1 matrix, c. 1974
2. two box EMI/Parlophone U.K. blue box, Side 1 is -3, Side 2 is a -4, c. 1985/86
3. two box EMI/Parlophone U.K. blue box, early 1980s
4. yellow/black Parlophone U.K., both sides are a -3N matrix, 1982 reissue
5. EMI/Odeon Japan mono red wax, 1982

The turntables / cartridges

Rega P 25 / Clearaudio Virtuoso cartridge
Rega P3 / Super Bias (turntable and cartridge I purchased brand new a month ago)
Rega Planar 3 / Bias (cartridge band new)
Thorens TD 166 MkII / Grado
Technics SL 3200 Direct-Drive Semi-Automatic Turntable / Grado

I should mention the reason I forked out the "big bucks" for yet another turntable was a result of the recent rash of sibilance I was hearing. Imagine how I felt, the letdown, when I again heard sibilance on my brand spanking new Rega P3 turntable.

I wonder why it is that it took me some 30 years to notice the sibilance on the Beatles LP. I going to listen to all the other stereo Beatles Parlophone LPs, EPs, and 45s I have to see if there's any other sibilance. JoeKoz recently mentioned to me that there is sibilance on The Beatles song "Nowhere Man". (Joe did not mention what pressing.)

His theory is and I quote, "Now that after years of listening to music, upgrading equipment, better understanding of how to listen to music and what to listen for, this makes the sibilance stand out. I'm telling you, about a year or so ago, just about everything I'd put on, the sibilance on some of the recordings drove me crazy. I couldn't understand that the music that I listened to for years, was all of a sudden, driving me nuts. Please check out "Nowhere Man" you'll see (hear) what I'm talking about!"

Any thought? Ideas? Can anyone else check their U.K. A Hard Day's Night stereo LPs and tell us if you hear any sibilance? Joe can you point us to a specific pressing of "Nowhere Man"? Stereo? Mono?

 

I've always had a problem with sibilance on vinyl HDN. I have a VPI Scout with a Dynavector 20x-h cart. But, I also hear it on my Doc Ebbetts and Millenium CDs. I have also noticed it some on the Eva Cassidy.

 

I've also heard sibilance on the UK stereo "A Hard Day's Night" LP all in the places you describe.

 

I notice the same problem on my S&P Songbird. I already had the album on another label and never experienced the degree of sibilance I do with the S&P pressing. I don't play the S&P pressing at all which is unfortunate.
FWIW, I played it on both tables I own, one has a Koetsu Black and the other has a Shure V15VMXr, the Shure did track a bit better but no matter what I did setup wise, I could not get rid of the excessive sibilance.

 

what is sibilance?

 

Pronounced sssssssssssssssss type sounds on vocals.

 

There's also some sibilance on my S&P Lp of Nat King Cole's "Just One Of Those Things" but I still love it.

 

Forgot about that one.

Yeah, same here. Great record but ssssssssssssssssss is a problem.

 

What songs on Eva Cassidy or Nat King Cole do you hear the sibilance, or is it all over?
I've only listened to my copies a couple of times and I didn't noticed any sibilance.

I also get one shot of sibilance on the 30th anniv DSOTM towards the end of side two, but that's the only place. After tweaking the set-up I was able to cut it down to just one quick (1/10 sec?) zip.

 

Just a few "leading" esses on Nat, moreso on Eva Cassidy though.
I painstakenly set up both of my tables and cartridges, played with both VTF and VTA, cartridge loading, tubes.............:

 

I'm certainly disappointed to hear about the sibilance issue on the Eva Cassidy "Songbird" S&P 180g Lp. Also on the Nat King Cole "Just One of Those Things" and the DSOTM 30th Anniversary 180g pressing.

Maybe SH could address the issue with regard to the Cassidy and Cole Lp's?

On the sibilance issue, maybe someone here could help with regard to one of my all time favorites that I've not been able to find without tons of sibilance:

Neil Young's "Live Rust" double Lp. When I was in high school I had a Technics SLD-20 direct drive TT ($90 at the time, around 1983) with an Audio Technica cart ($120 at the time). I currently have my original (which was a U.S. reissue and played to death on the Technics TT), a German first issue, and a U.K. first issue. I also have the first U.S. issued Cd. They all have the same sibilance problem:

"Oh to live on, Sssssugar mountain, with the barkerssssand the colored balloonssss. You can't be twenty, on ssssugar mountain, though you're thinkin' that you're leavin' there too ssssoon..."

It's like that on almost every song IIRC, particularly troublesome on the all acoustic first Lp.

Any suggestions on a version or tweak that would help to eliminate the sibilance on this recording would be very much appreciated

(it just occurred to me that this is probably what people refer to as "thread-crapping" if I understand the term correctly, if so, please let me know and I'll edit this post to delete any reference to Neil Young...)

 

From Dictionary.com

1 entry found for sibilance

sib·i·lant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sb-lnt)
adj.
Of, characterized by, or producing a hissing sound like that of (s) or (sh): the sibilant consonants; a sibilant bird call.

n.
A sibilant speech sound, such as English (s), (sh), (z), or (zh).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Latin sbilns, sbilant- present participle of sbilre, to hiss.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sibi·lance or sibi·lan·cy n.
sibi·lant·ly adv.

 

Do me a favor. If it's a poisonous snake don't be goofing around with words like "sibilance". Just tell me you heard the dang HISS.

"Doggone Billy Bob, I hear a sibiance comin from dat der bush. I'll reach in der and grab dat mono pressing. Shore e'nuff. Toot sweet."

 

So with my brand new Rega turntable, just under $1000. CDN
http://www.everestaudio.com/price-pages/rega-p3.htm
and the $200.+ cartridge, I actually need a turntable and cartridge that's even more expensive in order to listen to the DCC, S&P and other sibilant LPs and 12 inch singles in my collection.

Where can I find specs and prices for the Shure M15 cartridge? Don't see anything on Shure's Web site.
http://www.shure.com/phono/xrefphono.html

After spending $1110., hey, what's another $250-$300?

 

I have the earlier EMI pressing as well as the recent S&P. You may hear some excessive sibilance on that pressing too, not as much as the S&P, but it's still there.

 

Good point Steve. I should explain then.
After I align my cart., I play the tracking segments on the Hi-Fi News Test LP and it tracks very well on all but the final torture track (don't think anything tracks that one), the Shure tracks slightly better than my Koetsu. I've also played the Eva Cassidy LP on a Basis 2001 with a Vector unipivot (damped) arm and it tracked the best, but still not perfect.

 

No Steve. Why would I purchase an inferior version of an album you later worked on? I want to be able to listen to your S&P LP without any sibilance (and The Beatles too). If I have to save up for a more expensive cartridge, then that's what I have to do.

What do John and I need to do with our existing systems to stop the sibilance? John already has a fairly expensive system.

My new turntable is just over a month old. Soon as I got the turntable home, I immediately played the stereo U.K. A Hard Day's Night LP. The same sibilance was there on the same songs I listened to on my other turntables and John's turntable. If the my new turntable was 5 or 10 years old, maybe it would time for a tune up. A brand new turntable shouldn't be mistracking.

 

Chris, I think Steve has alluded to a very important point. Sibilance and mistracking are not the same. I know what you are talking about -- I have the MFSL Hard Day's Night and on the track "I'm Happy Just To Dance With You" George is very sibilant. Now if you play this with a poor quality and/or misaligned cartridge this sibilance will mistrack and you will hear a "sandpaper" like rasping. I hear this on the Doc Ebbett's and Millenium needle drops of these titles.
But on my Origin Live Aurora with the Silver tonearm and Shure V15MxVR this tracks properly and I hear pure sibliance -- no hash or sandpaper.
But sibilance is part and parcel of life; it's part and parcel of '60s recordings. Just make sure your cart is properly tracking so that you hear the difference between proper tracking of sibliance and mistracking of sibiliance. I've read hear that some cartridges like the Grado are notorious mistrackers of sibiliance.

 

Some recordings have sibilance built into them - the trick is getting that sibilance reproduced as clean as possible.

 

They don't necessarily get a "pass" either. It's possible the setup wasn't done properly, as has been done to me in the past by "professionals".

 

So then, what is the difference between mistracking with sibilance? Can somebody be more specific on what anomalies we should be hearing between the two?

 

Sibilance recorded in the performance on an LP will sound "of a piece" with the music: it will stay in the plane of the music rather than leap out at you. It will also be localized image-wise to the spot where the sibilant singer fits in the soundstage, whereras mistracking will often spill left or right (depending on skating/anti-skating forces).

The problem with playing the same sibilant-sounding LP on a new turntable is that mistracking can permanently etch distortion into an LP. What you're hearing is your new TT faithfully reproducing the groove damage done by the previous mistracking. I've learned this the hard way.

On the other hand, we audiophiles can get pretty neurotic about an audio perfection that doesn't (perhaps shouldn't) exist. To keep all this in perspective, next time you're hanging out with friends and everyone's talking, listen for sibilance: some of your friends will ssssound more ssssibilant than othersssss. It's a fact of life that many of us hit "s" sounds pretty hard when we talk/sing (Donald Fagen anyone?). Stick a microphone in front of us when we do this and, well, you'll hear sibilance (stick a Shure SM58 in front of us, and your ears will hurt). Most of the time, we tune this out with our brains, but sitting in front of our stereos staring with beady eyes at our speakers, we can get a bit hyper-sensitive.

As long as the sibilance sounds like it's the singer and not my stereo, I try not to get too worked up.