The Search For Pre-Emphasis

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Russ, Apr 26, 2005.

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  1. Russ

    Russ Outlaw Thread Starter

    Location:
    Anglesea, NJ
    A lot of people have always asked for a "Master" list of discs with Pre-Emphasis (including me). It occurred to me what better place to start than here. I don't want to turn the thread into an ABX of PE's versus other masterings. If you have a title that you know definitively uses PE, submit it to the thread and I'll add it to the list. I have three that I can add now.

    1. The Beatles - Abbey Road - Toshiba CP35-3016 "Black Triangle"
    2. Pink Floyd - DSOTM - Toshiba CP 35-3017 "Black Triangle"
    3. Pink Floyd - The Wall - Columbia CK 36185 C2K 36183 - Made In Japan


    I realize that some further clarification/identification of each disc will be needed as some are in dispute, at least it will be a start. I'd like to update each entry with links to photos and other relevant data for identification.

    A good way to detect Pre-Emphasis is with EAC. The new version of EAC will not work. This version will work: "eac095pb3.zip". You can find it using google. You may need to download and install this: "aspi_471a2.exe", which can also be found using Google.

    In EAC go to Action> TOC Alteration> Detect TOC Manually. If the disc uses Pre-Emphasis it will say "Yes" as the last entry to the right of the track number.

    Thanks for the help!
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    The Search For Spock

    Just curious, what will you do with a list like this? I can't imagine it what way it would help you.
     
  3. Russ

    Russ Outlaw Thread Starter

    Location:
    Anglesea, NJ
    Hey Steve,

    I realized that of those three titles, they are my favorite versions of those recordings. I would be interested in knowing what other titles have been mastered using this technique. I would obtain the ones I am interested in and compare them to the versions I have.
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    OK, but it's not a mastering technique, just a bit of coding. It's the same coding whether the mastering is good or bad just like the RIAA curve is the same whether the LP cutting engineer's work is good or bad. The operator has no direct contact with the Pre/E curve...

    I just want to make sure that people understand that.
     
  5. Russ

    Russ Outlaw Thread Starter

    Location:
    Anglesea, NJ
    Right on, I understand what you mean but chose the wrong word. Actually, what would be a good word "transferred"?

    Like I said, i noticed a trend in discs that use PE and that I liked them. Until you get around to mastering those three I'm sticking with them. ;)
     
  6. Michael St. Clair

    Michael St. Clair Forum Resident

    Location:
    Funkytown
    I'm going to double-post this, due to relevance, from the DSotM thread:

    Remember, pre-emphasis is supposed to be marked in the TOC and in the subchannel data stream. Some discs only mark the pre-emphasis in the subchannel data stream. These discs will not show pre-emphasis in EAC, even though they have pre-emphasis.

    Do all players correctly process the pre-emphasis in playback if the flag is missing from the TOC? I have no idea.

    Has anybody ever found a PC utility that can detect the pre-emphasis flagging in the subchannel data stream, not just the TOC?
     
  7. ubsman

    ubsman Active Member

    Location:
    Utah
    The ones I still have are
    1. Boston Don't Look Back EK 35050 (made in Japan)
    2. Roger Waters Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking CDP 7 46029 2 (made in Japan)
    3. Nena 99 Luftballons EK 39294 (made in Japan)
    4. John Cougar Ain't That America laserdisc (made in USA)
     
  8. GP

    GP Senior Member

    Location:
    Lynbrook, NY
    Well, I know this won't be a title everyone is looking for, but my Max Roach "Survivors" disc from Soul Note has pre-emph for sure. It's dated 1984 and made in Italy.

    And, to mention it yet again, my Black Face Japan Harvest 21A2 also has pre-emph, not detectable in EAC for the reasons Michael stated.

    I'll have to look for others.



    ...
     
  9. Mick Jones

    Mick Jones Senior Member

    For what it's worth I will list my only CD with pre-emphasis.

    Richard Thompson - Hand of Kindness - Hannibal HNCD 1313
     
  10. It helps when you get your out-of-print CD off Ebay, so you know what to do when you want to back it up.
     
  11. Bob Dylan's Greatest Hits (10 track version)
    Kings Of The Wild Frontier - Adam And The Ants (UK disc from 1994. The pre-emphasis flag really should not be there)
     
  12. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    One way it could help: if someone is making a copy of the CD on a computer for themselves, they may not know if it has this pre-emphasis bit set or not, which could lead to a wonky-sounding copy. Might be something to refer to in the future.
     
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  13. JoelDF

    JoelDF Senior Member

    Location:
    Prairieville, LA
    Quarterflash - S/T 1981 Geffen Records. The Japanese made Target CD. Discovered by accident that it had pre-e when I made a CD-R copy. EAC did not indicate pre-e and the copy sounded extremely wonky. After adding the pre-e flag and re-burning, it sounded fantastic as usual.

    Later I made my own ttf filter setting and ran it to de-emphesize the whole thing so that I can play it on my computer at work since the digital playback can't de-e like the analog out could from the the cd-rom drive.
     
  14. ChristianL

    ChristianL Senior Member

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    some 80's CD releases

    ELO - Secret Messages
    REO Speedwagon - Hi Infidelity
    Toto - Turn Back
    Journey - Frontiers
    Journey - Escape
    Deep Purple - Machine Head
     
  15. Taxman

    Taxman Senior Member

    Location:
    Fayetteville, NY
    Silk Degrees lights up PE on my CD player.
     
  16. ubsman

    ubsman Active Member

    Location:
    Utah
    I had always assumed those so-called "target" CDs were all made by Polygram in W. Germany. So they made some in Japan also?
     
  17. JoelDF

    JoelDF Senior Member

    Location:
    Prairieville, LA
    Yes they did. But, there weren't as many of them made (someone has an almost complete list somewhere - Keith, Kym, someone...)

    The only other Japanese target I have is Talking Head's Little Creatures, which does not have pre-e.
     
  18. Russ

    Russ Outlaw Thread Starter

    Location:
    Anglesea, NJ
    hey guys, just one request. could you provide al little more info on the discs you are talking about, matrix#, catalogue#, etc. If you can scan the discs and/or artwork i will host them on my webspace. Been real busy at work lately but i plan on updating the initial post. thanks.
     
  19. drewc

    drewc Forum Resident

    New Order - Low-life (Factory Records, FACD100)

    Only original Factory Records UK issues have the pre-e flag - the US version on Qwest does not (or at least I don't think it does - it plays fine everywhere I've tried including on the computer). Playing it on the computer sounds like crap, but on a bog-standard CD player it sounds fine. Incidentally the UK issue was manufactured both by Nimbus UK and JVC Japan (I have both versions, everything is identical except the country of manufacture) and both pressings have the pre-e flag.
     
  20. JoelDF

    JoelDF Senior Member

    Location:
    Prairieville, LA
    I have that one. I think it's a Nimbus disc, but I'm not sure (have to wait to get home to find out). Or maybe MPO in France...

    I had played it here on my work computer about a year back and it played fine, but then I was running it through the cd drive's analog out to the sound card which, at least for the model I had, handles pre-e and correctly compensates. These days, my computer media player is set for digital playback because of problems I have with not being able to pause or stop a CD once it starts if it's set for analog playback. That's also been since I upgraded machines and now run WinXP.
     
  21. Evan

    Evan Senior Member

    Early Japanease pressings of Bruce Springsteeen, "Darkness at the Edge of Town' have pre-e.
     
  22. Dusty Chalk

    Dusty Chalk Grounded Space Cadet

    It may also help if you have any outboard digital processing gear. I say this, because I vaguely remember reading in some review of an upsampler that it did not pass the pre-emphasis flag correctly, and therefore did not get pre-emphasized. You'd know to listen to it, bypassing the outboard gear.
     
  23. JoelDF

    JoelDF Senior Member

    Location:
    Prairieville, LA
    Just checked and mine's made in Japan.

    And yes, pre-e is present. And again, EAC missed it.
     
  24. trucker

    trucker Member

    Location:
    DC Suburbs
    The "Detect TOC Manually" command in EAC that DogOfDooM mentioned should solve that problem. I believe it bypasses the TOC entirely and goes straight to the subchannels for pre-emphasis flags, index information, and the like.

    At least, that's what happens with the Black Triangle Abbey Road. When you open the disc in EAC, it has a look at the TOC but not the subchannels. Since pre-emphasis isn't indicated in the TOC, it doesn't show up. But if you use the "Detect TOC Manually" command, it shows up fine, I believe because you've just instructed EAC to get its info from the subchannels.

    Incidentally, if you create a cuesheet at that point, it comes complete with pre-emphasis flags. No need to add them yourself when burning a backup copy.

    This is all true of EAC 0.9 beta 4. Don't know if the later versions behave any differently.
     
  25. Target CD made in USA

    My Rush, Power Windows, 1985 pressing is stamped "Made in USA (c) 1985 PolyGram Records, Inc."

    My other target CD's , 10CC's Greatest Hits 1972-1978, Rush Grace Under Pressure, Rush Permanent Waves, are stamped "Made in W. Germany," while Rush Signals is stamped "Made in W. Germany by Polygram."
     
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