Conical vs Elliptical Stylus....

[Tetrack]

About Conical/Spherical & standard Elliptical only.

What do you think is best in general for regular playback of LPs/45s, good condition & worn?.

I am using a Goldring Elan cartridge, which is conical. I also have a spare Elliptical Elektra stylus from another cartridge.
The Elan/Elektra share the same body/output, but i find the Conical Elan sounds best, better/higher output for some reason. The Elektra has probably had about the same amount of use, so it is not a worn tip.

I know elliptical tips are meant to produce better high frequency, but at the expense of greater record wear. The Conical tip giving less wear & being better for worn records/45s.

What is your take?.

[BradOlson]

I use an elliptical styus but the turntable I have does have weight adjustment and I don't notice much wear on my LPs when I use it. If I were to buy another cartridge, I'd go conical as I do have a removable headshell and would use that in most situations.

[OcdMan]

If I had to choose between only a spherical or an elliptical stylus, well, I don't think I could.

I'd go with a spherical tip for playing beat-up records. And I'd use an elliptical tip, like the .2 x .7 mil stylus on the Shure M97xE, and track it lightly for records already in great shape.

This is moving beyond the parameters of this thread but the .15 x 3.0 mil stylus on the Shure V15 V-MR is the best I've heard for records with groove damage. I have a handful of LPs and 45s that were worn-out years ago on cheap turntables using spherical or elliptical styli and the MicroRidge stylus really gets down below all that damage and distortion. Those same records are unlistenable with a basic elliptical stylus, merely okay with a MicroLine stylus (like on the Audio-Technica 440ML), but surprisingly good with the MR stylus. Of course, some are beyond help but that's to be expected.

[RetroSmith]

Ocdman:

I use THREE carts and styli among two TTs. For my prize LPs i use a Shure M97XE with elliptical stylus and it sounds wonderful.

For my "other" TT, I use a Shure M44 with a conical stylus for worn Lps and all my 45s. Tracked at a slightly heavier weight, this really puts a firm plant in the groove and gives the best fidelity on worn records. The difference can be amazing.

Note: I collect 45's on the "HIT" Ripoff Label from the 1960s. I have around 900 titles , most of them in crappy shape. The Shure M44 and conical stylus work WONDERS on these disks. I strongly recommend this combo to anyone who wants to transfer 45s to digital.....DONT use a elliptical, you wont get good results.

Oh yes, my third cart is the Shure with special stylus for 78s only. Sounds great even on trashed 78s. Between that and Adobe Audition, its how I bring lost sounds back to life.

[BradOlson]

I don't play worn out discs, I throw them in the trash. An elliptical is perfect for me.

[Metralla]

I don't like those primitive shapes. I prefer Line Contact or Weintz Parabolic, or one of the more modern shapes. I'm with BradOlson - if the disc is no good, throw it out.

[Steve Hoffman]

If you have a giant 45 RPM record collection then you need a conical to play the styrene pressings. Nothing else will work without cutting a new groove in your old record.

[RetroSmith]

So true!!!!

[BradOlson]

I have more LPs than I do 45s but my work may supply me with a Stanton STR8-80 that I will keep by my computer and that even comes with a DJ Craze cartridge and conical stylus.

[OcdMan]

Originally Posted by mikey5967

For my "other" TT, I use a Shure M44 with a conical stylus for worn Lps and all my 45s. Tracked at a slightly heavier weight, this really puts a firm plant in the groove and gives the best fidelity on worn records. The difference can be amazing.

Thanks for the positive info on this cartridge. I've been meaning to pick one of these up but haven't got around to it. Is this the M44-7 model? The one that can track up to 3 grams with an output of something like 9mv? I know Shure also has a variation that tracks lighter and has a lesser output voltage but I feel the heavier tracker is best.

Out of curiosity, what's the Stanton equivalent of the M44? Hey Bradley, where are you?

[Tetrack]

Thanks for your responses. I was considering the M44-7 too. Good for general listening use?.

[RetroSmith]

guys, the "new" M44-7 is a Dj cart that can track as high as 3 grams.

What i use is an older model that was for many years considered Shures most "musical" cart. For digital transfer of 45s and worn Lps, i have found the combination of that and conical stylus to be just right.

Hope this helps!

Mikey

[vanmeterannie]

So can anybody who really knows explain why a conical stylus will track some records great, and some horribly? I'm not talking about condition, I'm talking about...okay, here's a real world example. I have two LPs on black Atlantic. Play both with my Shure V15 V-MR and they sound okay, but somewhat noisy. Then play one with a 1 mil conical Pickering and it sounds GREAT. Play the other with the conical and it sounds like it's mistracking all over the place, and the sound has a muddiness to it. I notice this a lot; some discs the conical kicks butt over the elliptical, but surprisingly it's not always that way.

Different groove widths? Different wear? Different music (One is jazz, the other R&B)?

[RetroSmith]

Dude, thats gotta be record wear. Sometimes, the wear is just impossible to plow thru for decent sound.

[Tetrack]

Originally Posted by mikey5967

guys, the "new" M44-7 is a Dj cart that can track as high as 3 grams.

What i use is an older model that was for many years considered Shures most "musical" cart. For digital transfer of 45s and worn Lps, i have found the combination of that and conical stylus to be just right.
Hope this helps!

Mikey

I know it's listed as a DJ cart, but the Shure blurb says it's revived exactly as the original. The user guide even lists different set ups - Hi-Fi/DJ/Extreme DJ....


http://www.needlz.com/cartridges/m44-7.asp

[OcdMan]

Originally Posted by Tetrack

I know it's listed as a DJ cart, but the Shure blurb says it's revived exactly as the original. The user guide even lists different set ups - Hi-Fi/DJ/Extreme DJ....


http://www.needlz.com/cartridges/m44-7.asp

That was going to be my next question. So is it "revived exactly the same as the original" as Shure says or not? And how about that M35X cartridge? Hmm, I think it's time to email Shure.

[RetroSmith]

Ocdman:

I truly believe the older, original Shure M44 carts have a warmer sound. It may be the materials used in the 80s that are no longer used, but if you had a choice, I'd go for an original. Works wonders for me.

[OcdMan]

Originally Posted by vanmeterannie

So can anybody who really knows explain why a conical stylus will track some records great, and some horribly? I'm not talking about condition, I'm talking about...okay, here's a real world example. I have two LPs on black Atlantic. Play both with my Shure V15 V-MR and they sound okay, but somewhat noisy. Then play one with a 1 mil conical Pickering and it sounds GREAT. Play the other with the conical and it sounds like it's mistracking all over the place, and the sound has a muddiness to it. I notice this a lot; some discs the conical kicks butt over the elliptical, but surprisingly it's not always that way.

Different groove widths? Different wear? Different music (One is jazz, the other R&B)?

I've had experiences just like the one you're describing. I've found it to be a hit or miss thing with a conical tip, although it's been a while since I've had a cartridge with that type of tip. I don't know if it's a problem that your stylus is 1 mil and not 0.7 mil but I'll explain it the way it's been explained to me in the past...so guys don't hang me if this is not quite right. There can probably be other factors involved but here goes.

The Shure's MR stylus is riding so deep in the groove that it's getting under any old damage, so it sounds okay on both LPs, but it's also getting into some ground-in noise down in the groove. Now with the Pickering on the great-sounding LP, the stylus is riding above any groove damage (if there's any in the first place), so it also sounds okay...or great in this case. But the other LP may have been worn-out or damaged in such a way that, while the Shure can get below it, the Pickering just rides right through the damage and therefore sounds pretty bad just like Mikey said. There's also the possibility that the Pickering may actually be mistracking because the record contains levels it just can't handle. This has to be a major reason why the pros who transfer a lot of LPs and 45s to digital always have a variety of styli on hand.

FWIW, your Shure really isn't an elliptical stylus in the traditional sense. An elliptical stylus is usually .4 x .7 to .2 x .7 mils, while the MR stylus is .15 x 3.0 mils. Shure used to make a hyper-elliptical stylus which was .2 x 1.5 mils.

[OcdMan]

Originally Posted by mikey5967

Ocdman:

I truly believe the older, original Shure M44 carts have a warmer sound. It may be the materials used in the 80s that are no longer used, but if you had a choice, I'd go for an original. Works wonders for me.

Thanks. I'll do some checking with Shure to see what they recommend as something comparable. But I'll probably just end up scouring eBay.

[RetroSmith]

Ocdman:

I think you hit the nail on the head with that explanation. Remember that if the LP was played with a badly damaged needle, those gouges will be hard to get around.

I've got a Gary Lewis Lp that was damaged this way and tho it doesnt LOOK all that bad, its a lost cause. total distortion of the music.