"Damn it, there is tape hiss in-between tracks on Creedence "Willy & The Poor Boys"!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    "WHY IS THERE TAPE HISS IN-BETWEEN TRACKS?"

    This question is asked on AA a lot for some reason; I guess there is a guy there who thinks that tape hiss is evil or something and feels he was robbed because he can hear it between songs on the Analogue Productions dual layer SACD of Creedence.

    Truth be told, he is getting the purest signal possible.

    So, one more time, here is the reason. :)

    Background:

    The WILLY album master was assembled in 1969 without leader in between tracks, just a bit of spliced bias tape; common for albums mastered at studios like RCA and Capitol.

    When I mastered the Creedence WILLY at AcousTech with Kevin and Lon Neumann of Sony here is the process I used:

    To keep the signal as pure as possible I disconnected the mastering console and related devices from the mastering process. In other words, the analog playback deck was plugged directly into the DSD Meitner recorder. That was it; the signal was fed straight in. So, no "fadering down" between songs because there was no fader plugged in. See? Just the playback deck to the DSD deck. Nothing else; no level changes of any kind. This is why you hear tape hiss in-between tracks. Same for the CD layer.

    Be happy; this is the ultimate digital version of this great album!
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Good. What we get is the EXACT replica of the tape. Cool! Do you have that link handy, Steve?
     
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  3. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Steve,

    Very interesting! I have concluded that there are folks "out there" that do not want or even like, "master tape sound". When I hear tape hiss, I generally believe I am more likely to hear what music is actually present on those master tapes. Now this is what I want...

    Bob :)
     
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  4. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    That's right, Bob, they want it all tweaked and punched up.

    I recall Bill Inglot stating in an old BSN newsletter interview that if people got the master tape on CD they couldn't handle it. And, don't you know, people HATE hiss, and will do anything to get rid of it! :shake:

    I can't tell you how many times I do stuff for people and the first thing they want me to do is get rid of that hiss, and to make it LOUDER! :sigh:
     
  5. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    I would rather I did, then if I was not pleased with the sound I could, if I wanted to, re-master to my tastes and not have undo the work of others, which is a more daunting task. Thankfully, with Steve's work I do not have to do this!

    Bob :)
     
  6. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    And the compression :shake:...All I have, as the only source for several songs, are those ungodly compressed CDs, like those mid 90s Salsoul CDs, that Andrea True Connection best of CD, or some of the Hip-O comps. I have a very hard time trying to undo the compression to the point where the music is just somewhat normal sounding again. :realmad:
     
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  7. Dan C

    Dan C Forum Fotographer

    Location:
    The West
    Thanks Steve.

    I think I hear hiss between tracks on the DCC Paul Simon LP you did. Is it a super pure transfer as well? It sounds quite beautiful. :)

    dan c
     
  8. ubsman

    ubsman Active Member

    Location:
    Utah
    Spliced bias tape? What exactly is that for us non-recording engineers here?
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    Blank tape that has been recorded with no signal. Like if you turn your reel to reel on, thread up a reel of tape and hit the record button. The tape hiss and bias noise is recorded on the tape with no music. It's like in the movies when the sound engineer records "room noise" so that he can blend it in between dialogue segments so the background stays the same.

    Some mastering rooms in the old days didn't have faders so you couldn't fade up and down between songs. White Leader tape was too "abrupt" between tracks; too lacking in background noise.. Ya see?
     
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  10. Todd E

    Todd E Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood-adjacent
    So you're saying that if you -- or the original label, or mastering engineer, of whoever -- had inserted paper leader between the songs, that particular "problem" would have been eliminated?

    Then, why not use paper leader? Is here some advantage to using tape between cuts?
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    Todd,

    You think I should have taken the Creedence master tape and respliced every song with paper leader after 35 years? Uh, no.
     
  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    You understand that this "noise" is minus 50 db down in level, correct?
     
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  13. househippie

    househippie Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Diego
    Oh, this is all soooo beautiful!!! Thank goodness there's at least one person like you who's involved in the remastering part of the business. Now, if only your craft would spread to become standard practice so that all recorded music sounded so alive! :righton:
     
  14. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    Gosh, I'd expect it to be more like minus 60 or 70 db down.

    Steve, I haven't done any CD or SACD mastering, but I'm kind of surprised that you do it on the fly as in cutting records. Why not master one song at a time? :confused:
     
  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    Re-read my initial post.

    To stop and start would bring in to play the actual mastering console. To fader down is easy but "blacking" in DSD involves steps that I would rather not do if I can keep the signal PURE! I did the same thing when I did the CD of WHO'S NEXT on MCA.
     
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  16. Todd E

    Todd E Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hollywood-adjacent
    So with you, it's a matter of keeping the master tape as it was, which I appreciate. My question also asked, though, why paper leader wasn't used in the first place. Is there a reason not to have?

    Incidentally, back when I was editing a lot of interviews with a razor blade, we'd have recorded a couple minutes' worth of "room noise" to use as spacing between the interviewee's words when we'd cut down sentences or eliminated verious "um"s or "like"s. It sounded a lot more real...
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    As I mentioned above, in the old days, cutters didn't have faders. The transition from hiss to no hiss was too abrupt for certain studios (like Capitol and RCA-Victor) so they kept the background noise going in between songs so the listener wouldn't notice the drop out in noise. All master tape assemblies from Capitol and RCA are like this; other studios from that era as well..Kind of charming, actually.

    The rest of the studios used white leader between tracks; kind of a warning to the cutter that the song was ending and a new one beginning.
     
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  18. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam

    Those Tom Dowd engineered, 8-track recordings excepted? Or not?

    Bob :confused:
     
  19. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    I did read that, but didn't realize you couldn't master each song separatly by bypassing the console, and then resequence them when creating the master. Obviously I have no idea how DSD mastering works.
     
  20. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brother™ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Columbia's first CD pressings of Dylan's "Blood on the Tracks" has the hiss in between the songs. You would really have to crank it up, between the songs to hear the tape hiss anyway. It is more noticeable with headphones...not a big deal...IMO.
     
  21. OcdMan

    OcdMan Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    Put "Tape hiss is great!" posters in every school, mall, fast food restaurant, and iPod box and in about 10 years "they" won't be able to give noise-reduction software away let alone sell it. People are suckers and they'll believe just about anything you tell them...if you repeat yourself long enough and loud enough. Unfortunately, the message has been quite the opposite over the past 10 or more years and audio quality has really suffered. :sigh:
     
  22. grx8

    grx8 Senior Member

    Location:
    Santiago, Chile
    It´s so beatiful sounding this SACD. (The redbook layer). Im hearing thing on "Cotton Fields" and on every track that I didn´t heard on "Chronicles"-
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host Thread Starter

    Location:
    California
    Chronicles was mastered with a top end "tilt" and thinned out lower mid and bass section. This gives the music more sparkle but you lose the body of the music this way; the magic of the music is in the midrange! That's also the hardest for stereos to reproduce correctly...

    Folks,

    None of my business and I don't get a dime if you do or do not buy the Analogue Productions Creedence dual layer SACD's or vinyl LP's, but they will be out of print in a few years. Remember DCC!
     
  24. ascot

    ascot Senior Member

    Location:
    Wisconsin
    I want this on a t-shirt. :righton:
     
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  25. Jerry

    Jerry Grateful Gort Staff

    Location:
    New England
    "I like a bit of tape hiss, personally."
    George Harrison, Beatles Video "Anthology" Bonus Disc
     

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