Steve, what are your thoughts on HDCD? (Asked in reference to upcoming gold CDs.)

KeithH · 11-04-2004, 02:39 PM

A lot has been made about Audio Fidelity releasing gold CDs after releasing a number of stellar SACDs. I can understand this point of view in terms of the relative fidelity of the two formats.

Steve, what is your opinion of HDCD? Do you feel that HDCD could squeeze a bit more life out of the gold CDs in order to shorten the gap between these discs and SACDs (when, of course, played on HDCD-capable equipment)? If so, is HDCD a possibility for these gold-CD mastering projects?

I ask this with the greatest sincerity, so I apologize in advance if this question in any way offends you and your approach to mastering. (I put in this disclaimer because I don't know a priori if you view HDCD as unnecesary processing.)

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I suppose this thread really belongs in the hardware section. Sorry if I messed up.

MMM · 11-04-2004, 03:39 PM

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?p=687423

KeithH · 11-04-2004, 03:53 PM

Martin, thanks. I missed that in the Audio Fidelity thread.

For those wondering what Martin is talking about, here is a comment from Steve on HDCD from that thread:

Quote:

I don't love HDCD.

Steve, could you elaborate on the above comment? What is about HDCD that you don't like? Just curious.

**Steve Hoffman** · 11-04-2004, 04:34 PM

Most of you (not all) are unable to do this test:

Record an analog master tape to digital, both with and without HDCD encoding.

Play back all three in sync. The straight digital signal sounds more like the true analog master than the HDCD version.

What else is there to say?

b&w · 11-04-2004, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Most of you (not all) are unable to do this test:

Record an analog master tape to digital, both with and without HDCD encoding.

Play back all three in sync. The straight digital signal sounds more like the true analog master than the HDCD version.

What else is there to say?

Steve,

Is that play back with HDCD decoding also? Thanks so much..

**Steve Hoffman** · 11-04-2004, 04:50 PM

Well, yes, that's what I meant.

This is just my opinion. If you love it, that's ok..

KeithH · 11-04-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman

Most of you (not all) are unable to do this test:

Record an analog master tape to digital, both with and without HDCD encoding.

Play back all three in sync. The straight digital signal sounds more like the true analog master than the HDCD version.

What else is there to say?

I can't do the test, but I greatly appreciate it, Steve. Thanks!

An unfortunate thing about HDCD is that there is no way to defeat it with compatible gear. So, you can't compare 16/44.1 and HDCD (20/44.1?).

Jason Brown · 11-04-2004, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeithH

An unfortunate thing about HDCD is that there is no way to defeat it with compatible gear. So, you can't compare 16/44.1 and HDCD (20/44.1?).

This is what I don't like about it. I don't have any HDCDs that I think sound crappy, but I would like to be able to turn off the decoding to see if I could hear a difference.

One crappy (IMO) disc I have heard is the remastered Shout at the Devil but I doubt that has anything to do with HDCD. More likely it's other aspects of the mastering.

Pinknik · 11-04-2004, 05:55 PM

Reference Recordings HDCD Sampler Volume 2, RR-905CD, contains 6 comparison tracks on it. These are pairs, the first two pairs being an analog tape to either HDCD or Redbook digital via a Sony 1630. The last pair is a direct digital recording on either HDCD or another digital system (Sony/KOJ 701ES digital master). I have no HDCD decoding capabilities, nor was I savy enough to pick up the differences between tracks without the decoding. However, if you're interested, it's out there.

BradOlson · 11-04-2004, 06:32 PM

What I do know first hand is that so many modern country CDs are mastered in HDCD and that I don't have a compatible player although at my local pawn shops, I see a 5 disc Apex DVD changer that has HDCD decoding capabilities all the time and they don't sell.

**Gary** · 11-04-2004, 06:53 PM

I think that's because of the "Apex" name brand, Brad.

A lot of them don't seem to be dependable players from what I've heard.

BIG ED · 11-04-2004, 06:54 PM

I've always loved the HDCD digital filter, from Pacific Microsoft (sic).
Too the best of my knowledge, it's not brickwalled at 22.05.
And can give HDCD players an added sense of openness & air, with 16/44.1 & 24/48.

**stereoptic** · 11-04-2004, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

I think that's because of the "Apex" name brand, Brad.

A lot of them don't seem to be dependable players from what I've heard.

Here's a recent thread about Apex , IIRC the consensus was pretty favorable (considering the price)

**Bob Lovely** · 11-04-2004, 07:01 PM

I'll take Steve's straight forward approach to mastering with no "gadgets" in the signal path, thank you. We all claim to want to be "closer" to the original master tape. Well, Steve ensures that we are...

Bob

KeithH · 11-04-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lovely

I'll take Steve's straight forward approach to mastering with no "gadgets" in the signal path, thank you. We all claim to want to be "closer" to the original master tape. Well, Steve ensures that we are...

Bob

This is why I put the disclaimer in my initial post. I was wondering if Steve might view HDCD as unnecessary processing.

TMan · 11-04-2004, 08:31 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but I've always wondered what HDCD is? What does it entail, exactly?

Jason Brown · 11-04-2004, 09:01 PM

It's essentially supposed to be a 20-bit disc, rather than the standard 16.

**-=Rudy=-** · 11-04-2004, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Lovely

I'll take Steve's straight forward approach to mastering with no "gadgets" in the signal path, thank you. We all claim to want to be "closer" to the original master tape. Well, Steve ensures that we are...

Bob

My worry is that HDCD degrades the sound except for the few who own HDCD-capable players. I'd rather have my disc sound good no matter where I play it.

TMan · 11-04-2004, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Brown

It's essentially supposed to be a 20-bit disc, rather than the standard 16.

Thanks. If this is the case, how would this degrade the sound, or add processing (for players that can play it)? For players without the capability, how do they play HDCD discs? Can a standard player play 20 bit discs, or is there a dual layer?

lv70smusic · 11-05-2004, 12:33 AM

I may be wrong, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but my understanding is that an HDCD encoded disc played back without HDCD decoding actually has fewer than 16 bits resolution as the "least significant bit" is used to carry the HDCD encoding. In a non-HDCD player, therefore, you have 15 bits of signal and 1 bit of noise. Why degrade the signal for the majority of players while (theoretically) improving it for a relatively small number of players?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMan

Thanks. If this is the case, how would this degrade the sound, or add processing (for players that can play it)? For players without the capability, how do they play HDCD discs? Can a standard player play 20 bit discs, or is there a dual layer?

11-04-2004, 02:39 PM	#1
KeithH CD collector, and so much more Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: It varies. Posts: 23,723	Steve, what are your thoughts on HDCD? (Asked in reference to upcoming gold CDs.) A lot has been made about Audio Fidelity releasing gold CDs after releasing a number of stellar SACDs. I can understand this point of view in terms of the relative fidelity of the two formats. Steve, what is your opinion of HDCD? Do you feel that HDCD could squeeze a bit more life out of the gold CDs in order to shorten the gap between these discs and SACDs (when, of course, played on HDCD-capable equipment)? If so, is HDCD a possibility for these gold-CD mastering projects? I ask this with the greatest sincerity, so I apologize in advance if this question in any way offends you and your approach to mastering. (I put in this disclaimer because I don't know a priori if you view HDCD as unnecesary processing.) Thanks in advance. P.S. I suppose this thread really belongs in the hardware section. Sorry if I messed up. __________________ www.keithhirsch.com

11-04-2004, 03:39 PM	#2
MMM Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Lodi, New Jersey Posts: 9,719	http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...d.php?p=687423 __________________ Martin Melucci http://www.doowopusa.org/ Promoting & preserving the Mid Century Modern architecture, spirit, & character of The Wildwoods http://www.doowopusa.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

11-04-2004, 05:55 PM	#9
Pinknik Forum Hall Of Fame Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sitting in a bunker, here behind my wall Posts: 6,353	Reference Recordings HDCD Sampler Volume 2, RR-905CD, contains 6 comparison tracks on it. These are pairs, the first two pairs being an analog tape to either HDCD or Redbook digital via a Sony 1630. The last pair is a direct digital recording on either HDCD or another digital system (Sony/KOJ 701ES digital master). I have no HDCD decoding capabilities, nor was I savy enough to pick up the differences between tracks without the decoding. However, if you're interested, it's out there. __________________ May I mambo dogface to the banana patch?

11-04-2004, 06:53 PM	#11
Gary Nauga Gort! Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 19,369	I think that's because of the "Apex" name brand, Brad. A lot of them don't seem to be dependable players from what I've heard. __________________ Support the Swan Foundation's Dental Health research program. "In order for a forest to be green, every tree must be green" George Harrison

11-04-2004, 07:01 PM	#14
Bob Lovely Super Gort Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 12,295	I'll take Steve's straight forward approach to mastering with no "gadgets" in the signal path, thank you. We all claim to want to be "closer" to the original master tape. Well, Steve ensures that we are... Bob __________________ "Anyone who says he can see through women is missing a lot." - Groucho Marx

11-04-2004, 04:34 PM	#4
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,271	Most of you (not all) are unable to do this test: Record an analog master tape to digital, both with and without HDCD encoding. Play back all three in sync. The straight digital signal sounds more like the true analog master than the HDCD version. What else is there to say?

11-04-2004, 04:50 PM	#6
Steve Hoffman Your host Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 39,271	Well, yes, that's what I meant. This is just my opinion. If you love it, that's ok..

11-04-2004, 06:32 PM	#10
BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bemidji, Minnesota, USA Posts: 24,289	What I do know first hand is that so many modern country CDs are mastered in HDCD and that I don't have a compatible player although at my local pawn shops, I see a 5 disc Apex DVD changer that has HDCD decoding capabilities all the time and they don't sell.

11-04-2004, 06:54 PM	#12
BIG ED Forum Icon Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Wine Country of California Posts: 2,406	I've always loved the HDCD digital filter, from Pacific Microsoft (sic). Too the best of my knowledge, it's not brickwalled at 22.05. And can give HDCD players an added sense of openness & air, with 16/44.1 & 24/48.

11-04-2004, 08:31 PM	#16
TMan Forum Addict Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,789	Forgive my ignorance, but I've always wondered what HDCD is? What does it entail, exactly? __________________ "Somewhere in my soul... there's always rock - and - roll" - Joe Strummer

11-04-2004, 09:01 PM	#17
Jason Brown Forum Addict Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 1,108	It's essentially supposed to be a 20-bit disc, rather than the standard 16.

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