Did Robbie Robertson take too much credit?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by SteveSDCA, Aug 7, 2004.

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  1. SteveSDCA

    SteveSDCA Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    San Diego
    Specifically, for writing The Band's songs? After their second album, he seemed to be the only one to write their songs, or at least take credit for it. I know Levon Helm had a falling out with him.
     
  2. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    Mr. Robertson sure resembles a peacock thoughout "The Last Waltz," scarf and all! An amazing turnabout, given the Band's carefully cultivated initial low key image as a band of five, equal musicians. They seem to have gone downhill after the second (brown) album, as RR's self-image ascended. I'm sure drugs had a lot to do with it, but he really seems to have
    developed a bad case of the Robbies.
    A real pity, given how great (and timeless) those first two albums are.
     
  3. babyblue

    babyblue Patches Pal!

    Location:
    Pacific NW
    And Robbie's performance in the Last Waltz is all the more laughable when Levon revealed that his vocal mic was turned off throughout the show! Robbie also bronzed his guitar before the concert, which added considerably to it's weight, making it difficult to play. I think you could safely say Robbie takes a bit too much credit for everything!

    Steve
     
  4. olsen

    olsen Senior Member

    Location:
    los angeles
    What's writing and what's arranging? Robertson claims the band helped only with arrangements and he probably believes that to be true. But I've seen arranging sessions gut a song to the barest of bones, and reconstruct it in a better, but barely recognizable way. If a producer with clout does this he'll frequently insist on writing credit and get it. I'll bet Levon believes they performed a few major operations on Robbie's songs too.
     
  5. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I love his post-Band work and greatly respect him for what he has done for the Native American cause. The stuff that happened in The Band is not uncommon with rock bands, and does not take the shine off Robbie as far as I'm concerned.
     
  6. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I find Levon Helm to be a really likable guy, and Robbie Robertson comes off as kind of an arrogant jerk in the Last Waltz and lots of interviews I've seen. That said, contributing to the arrangement of a song, or making occasional small lyrical suggestions, is not generally something that a person is given songwriting credit for. Maybe it should be, but it isn't, and Robertson's actions with publishing don't seem any different than any other songwriter of his generation. You don't seen Lennon/McCartney sharing songwriting credit with the other Beatles or George Martin, or Jagger/Richards with the other Stones, etc. If Robertson "took too much credit" then so did a lot of other people.
     
  7. James Glennon

    James Glennon Senior Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Old Sayings Spring To Mind!

    The best of friends, the worst of enemies!

    Two sides to every story!

    Ne'er the twain shall meet!

    I only need to know their music, not their personal stuff! I have enough problems of my own, thank you!
    JG
     
  8. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    I'm with you, Steve; trust the art, not the artist.
    Who knows what went on within the group to create its classic stuff?
    That said, however, the guy does seem to be a preening jerk, but maybe was a swell person in the early years. None of us will ever know.
    Screw it: I'm going to go listen to Chest Fever.
     
  9. Mick Jones

    Mick Jones Senior Member

    I think that your Jagger/Richard example cuts both ways.

    It must be very difficult as a member of a band to insist that your contributions are credited if the main song writers are used to routinely taking credit for everything written by the group. Pushing your claim could sour the working relationship, or lead to a split, or even result in the group disbanding.

    There has been much written, by the participants and others, to suggest that Brian Jones, Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor contributed heavily to certain Stones songs without getting any publishing credit. However, look at the credits for Sister Morphine. An articulate, strong willed collaborator like Marianne Faithfull could manage to get Jagger/Richard to acknowledge their contribution, but of course Marianne wasn't one of the Stones.
     
  10. Paul C.

    Paul C. Senior Member

    Location:
    Australia
    I'm with Metralla... perhaps Robbie was more inclined to go for the spotlight, which left the other members of the Band a bit in the background. But there's no doubt about his songwriting abilities, and I'm not aware of him taking credit for stuff that he didn't contribute to. He probably is arrogant, but i think with his talent he can afford to be a bit - he is right into his music and I take my hat off to him for continuing to stretch himself with his solo works, from "Robbie Robertson" right up to "Underworld".
     
  11. rdnzl

    rdnzl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    100% agree!
     
  12. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio

    i agree.

    if you haven't heard robertson's 4 solo albums, run out and get them as soon as possible.

    renny
     
  13. Pug

    Pug The Prodigal Snob Returns!

    Location:
    Near Music Direct
    The MoFi of Robbie's first album sounds good. :thumbsup:

    I've never thought that Robbie took too much credit. IMHO, his solo stuff is a LOT better than the last couple albums by the reformed Band which makes me believe he was responsible for a lot of it.

    Having said that, I have 2 of Levon's solo rekkids and they be very good!

    Sean
     
  14. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I read Levon Helm's book. He's confusing song arranging with song writing. Robbie Robertson wrote most of the Band's songs. When the other members of the Band realized how much extra money Robertson made from publishing, a lot of resentment built up. Mike Love probably resents Brian Wilson, but I don't believe him either.
     
  15. paulg61

    paulg61 Senior Member

    Location:
    CT

    Yeah - I love The Band (especailly the first 2 and with Zimmy) But that Robbie quote "The roads taken a lot of the good ones - Jimi, Janis, - 16 years on the road, it's an impossible way of life man, it'll kill ya" (which always bothered me to begin with - as The Band toured so infrequently - I don't think they were on the road more than a cummulative total of 16 monthsl) - is now almost laughable! Even if it was 16 years -Tell that to Keith Richards - What with The Stones (who actually have been on the road pretty consistently ) touring for over 40 years now!
     
  16. Richard Feirstein

    Richard Feirstein New Member

    Location:
    Albany, NY
    Levon quit the group (Hawks) soon after it went on a world tour with Dylan (65-66). It was his group till then. He did not rejoin the group until late in the Basement Tapes process. In retrospect that may have been a mistake since Robbie seemed to take a leadership roll at that point.

    Also note that when Robbie left the group, and they came back together to record, they did not write any notible song. That says a lot, IMO.

    When the last concert was filmed the group was already done in by mental problems and substance abuse. Very sad but true. Recently the Hawk put out a CD in which Robbie and Leevon appear together on the same track (they did not know what he had in mind and they recorded on seperate dates). The Hawk thought they should put the past behind them. :edthumbs:

    Richard.
     
  17. Ed Hughes

    Ed Hughes Senior Member

    Location:
    phila.pa.
    Well said,I get so sick of reading about this b.s. It starts to detract from the music for me :(
     
  18. Mark

    Mark I Am Gort, Hear Me Roar Staff

    I've been a huge Band fan for many, many years and I believe that Robbie Robertson is one of the finest songwriters and guitarists of the generation. None of us, of course, were there, but it seemed that, after the first two albums that a number of non-musical distractions hit various group members. Robertson may well have been exposed to that (I mean, come on, how could he not?) but he seems to have been able to avoid the downfalls to some great degree. He has always said, as I recall, that he wrote his songs for Richard, Rick and Levon to sing, and that all participated in the arrangements, suggesting who would sing, how choruses would be approached, etc. I also remember reading that he encouraged all three of them to write, but that, probably from the distractions, they lost focus (Robertsons' words that I am paraphrasing) after the second album. I have never really read the absolute genesis of Levon's problems with him, and I would be interested to know where the friction all got started. I would bet, without any first hand knowledge, that "TLW" situation was the culmination, not the beginning, of it.
     
  19. While it may be unpleasant to find out what happens behind the scenes, it is important (to some) to know about this stuff because we find that our invincible little bands ("Beggars Banquet" + "Let it Bleed" + "Sticky Fingers" + "Exile on Main Street"= the Golden Age) suddenly become mediocre at best ("Goat's Head Soup" + "It's Only Rock and Roll" + "Black and Blue"= what the Hell happened?) If Bill Wyman did indeed contribute the main riff to "Jumping Jack Flash" and received no credit, how often do you think he's going to keep offering his ideas? This is where the rot sets in, and in many, many instances this is why your favorite band bites the dust.
     
  20. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Vancouver
    Yes, the world-weariness is funny when you watch The Last Waltz now and consider how young they were at that time. Robbie Robertson was only 33!
     
  21. Mark H

    Mark H Senior Member

    Location:
    upstate N.Y.
    I try not to even think about the feuds that seem to crop up among the super talented musicians in all my favorite bands. I know Leon, at least as of a couple months ago, is still quite bitter. I heard him interviewed on a local radio show when he was playing in my hometown. Sad how often it seems to end that way.
     
  22. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    The thing that really seemed to cause the shift in power dynamic, and make Robbie the dominant member, was Richard Manuel's writer's block. Richard wrote a bunch of great songs during their demo sessions (the stuff that's included on the official Basement Tapes album) and he contributes just as many songs as Robbie on their first album. But after that it's all downhilll... three cowrites on the second album, two on the third, and then nothing. If Richard had been able to continue writing songs, they would have been a different band. Perhaps the cooperative egalitarian spririt might have lasted longer, and Robbie wouldn't have developed so much power. Levon often comments how he and the other members (besides Robbie) always considered themselves to be "Richard's band".
     
  23. whitenoise

    whitenoise New Member

    Location:
    Sarasota, Florida
    Yes; this also happened with the Beatles, the Who, and the Kinks as well.

    The Doors notably managed to avoid this sort of internal conflict by sharing the songwriting credits among all four (until Touch Me, where Jim Morrison wanted the blame assigned, if I recall the story correctly). Of current bands, I know the Flaming Lips also share credit this way.

    (I believe Mike Love's claim that he wrote the "she's giving me excitations" couplet -- worst lines in the song.)
     
  24. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    As does REM.

    The question of how many lines of lyrics you have to contribute to deserve songwriting credit is unclear. I remember Lennon saying how he contributed lots of lyrics to Taxman without credit, and George responding that he contributed lots of lyrics to Lennon/McCartney songs too. If the only thing Mike Love contributed to Good Vibrations was the line "she's giving me excitations" then he must have a very good lawyer to win him songwriting credit on that one.
     
  25. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member

    It unfortunate that his guitar playing never receives the accolades that it deserves. I saw the Band a number of time in their prime and Robbie was a monster guitar player. Also Levon always whines about how he never got his fair share but the other members who really was the band was Garth Hudson. Garth was/is a walking music academy.
     
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