RCA-Victor LIVING STEREO LP thoughts. And: Just What is "Miracle Surface 317X "???

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Tristan, Jul 7, 2004.

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  1. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    From my copy of LSC 1817:
    "Miracle Surface" This record contains the revolutionary new antistatic ingredient, 317X, which helps keep the record dust free, helps prevent surface noise, helps insure faithful sound reproduction on Living Stereo records."

    Just what is this "revolutionary new antistatic ingredient?" Could it be used with todays RTI pressings? :confused:
     
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  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    It's still a secret!
     
  3. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    I mean, is it for real or is it a scam??? One never knows....
     
  4. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    I think it is a scam as even cleaning these can make them sound better.
     
  5. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    It's like well...... ;)

    I mean, umm.... Why does an RCA Living Stereo shaded dog sound better than most CD reissues of the same material? Ever heard one?

    The magic is in the vinyl. May never happen again.
     
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  6. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    That is right, they used a high quality vinyl back then. Nowadays, only audiophile labels do this.
     
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  7. -=Rudy=-

    -=Rudy=- ♪♫♪♫♫♪♪♫♪♪ Staff

    Location:
    US
    I have a few LiViNg StErEo LPs with that sticker also, all in the LSP series. Too bad they couldn't have used some of that fairy dust on those "dynaflex" LPs to make them listenable. :laugh:
     
  8. M.L. Kaufman

    M.L. Kaufman New Member

    Location:
    USA
    My experience: it does indeed work. RCA's of the late '50s and early '60s, regardless of how well-cared-for they are, seem always to have very little static charge.

    Yes, I suppose it's still a secret, but it did work!

    MK
     
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  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Some of those RCA Living Stereo's are just amazing sounding; better than the master tapes if you can believe it!
     
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  10. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Oh yeah, Steve; just which ones sound better than the master tape?
    How is it possible to sound better than the master?
     
  11. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I've talked about this many times in print. A lucky accident; a good two-track, enhanced by that wacky Westrex tube cutting system. Listen to a good RCA Living Stereo reissue on Classic and then a good original cutting (which ever one is the "hot" stamper). WOW! What a difference; the magic is with the RCA cutting.
     
  12. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Steve, some people advocate that the Westrex cutting system was incapable of producing frequencies above 10KHz. What say you? I truly agree that the original Hot Stamper pressings far exceed any Classic Reissue, though. At least to my ears, there are those decenters out there that disagree...
     
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  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I'm with you on this, SOME do, some don't. It varies, both for Classic and for Victor. I have a vast Living Stereo LSC collection and some are truly wonderful, some are just ok and some stink (sound-wise).

    I always say it's a happy accident that the good ones sound so wonderful. I mean, the cutting engineers at RCA used RCA 15" speakers, no tweeter, not even in a speaker box for some of them. Just a turn of the dice!

    The Scully/Westrex system had a quirk: It turned everything at 8k totally out of phase (something the Neumann system fixed). With the right mixdown tape, this plus the "tube lag" just made a bunch of the LSC's shine, rich with body and ambiance that is NOT ON THE MASTER TAPES, NOR THE THREE-TRACK WORK PARTS!

    The Scully system went up to 15k or higher, but I've heard such BAD LSC cuttings, using the same equipment as the GOOD cuttings that I think it was truly operator Dependant!

    So Sayeth Steve :)
     
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  14. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Thanks Steve for your elaborate reply. Could you please give a quick dissertation off the top of your head which ones (RCA LSC's) are really special?
     
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  15. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I can't really. I have most of them, but I'm not obsessive about making notes about stamper numbers, etc. I assume you have Jon Valin's LIVING STEREO BIBLE? I pretty much agree with him.

    My 1806 is totally fab, and I paid 100 bucks for that thing. I'd have to pull it out to find the stamper number and then I'd start pulling more and my wife would kill me.

    Go with the LIVING STEREO BIBLE; we agree almost all of the time..

    Love those RCA's. It's amazing how something can sound so good still to this day.

    By the way, I have a SCULLY/WESTREX electronic "patch" that I use once in a while to bring dead sounding master tapes back to life. It's fun.
     
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  16. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Is that Scully/Westrex "patch" part of how you achieve that breath of life quality to your mastering?
    BTW, thanks for recommending Jon Valin's LIVING STEREO BIBLE. BION, I have never heard of this before!
    Thanks Steve!
     
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  17. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
    My 1806 is totally fab, and I paid 100 bucks for that thing. I'd have to pull it out to find the stamper number and then I'd start pulling more and my wife would kill me.

    Funny thing, my wife kills me for just being on this website! Not to mention pulling out copies of LSC's, too!
     
  18. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Tristan,

    I only use on occasion; it slows everything down too much for rock or jazz; I mainly use it on big orchestra recordings. The "Breath" comes from somewhere else!

    Do a search for the RCA BIBLE.

    For those of you reading this who don't have any idea what we are talking about, read this, from the Internet:
    --------------------

    What is an RCA "Shaded Dog" record? Why are they so valuable?

    RCA's "Shaded Dogs" are their LSC-series (Living Stereo Classical) LPs
    from the late 1950s and early 1960s -- the term "shaded dog" refers to
    the painting of Little Nipper on the label of these records, which has
    a shaded background on a red label. This series was very exactingly
    recorded and is in demand primarily among audiophiles who actually
    want to listen to these excellent-sounding performances. The mere
    presence of a "shaded dog" on the label doesn't automatically make it
    valuable; since these are sought out for listening purposes, condition
    is extremely important and some pressings (identified by the matrix
    number in the runout groove) are in higher demand than others.

    This is definitely a specialist's market. If you're interested in
    dipping your toes, a book by Jonathan Valin called The Living Stereo
    Bible describes the series in more detail.
     
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  19. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    It seems to me that the MERCURY LIVING PRESENCE STEREOS go for more $$$ than some of the RCA's. Is that just collectiblity or perhaps somewhat meaningful as far as the sound quality is concerned? Those Mercury engineers supposedly really knew what they were doing. So much for happy accidents.
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I have a bunch of Mercs and I like them, but for some reason the RCA's are more fun to collect and listen to. They sound REALLY tube-cut whereas the Mercs just sound like Bob Fine's home stereo. That's neat and all, but I like the charming sound of the LSC's.

    Don't forget those totally amazing LONDON "Bluebacks" Some of them are astounding as well!
     
  21. Tristan

    Tristan Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Originally posted by Steve Hoffman:
    Don't forget those totally amazing LONDON "Bluebacks" Some of them are astounding as well!

    OK, Steve; so how do we compare the London BB's to the original Decca's?
     
  22. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    So, Steve, could you then essentially replicate that RCA sound with the added benefit of extended frequency response, wider dynamic range and quieter surfaces? Would you do this if given the task of remastering these classical titles? I suppose it means that the RCA's are not "accurate" per say, but more involving and somehow more lifelike? Can the CLASSIC re-issues really be faulted for sounding more like the master tapes? Just curious, thanks for fielding my minefield of questions.
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I could replicate that RCA sound, yes. I figured out how to do it. Problem is, no one wants that sound anymore!

    I don't fault CLASSIC's reissues except in the fact that some are unnecessarily cold sounding; sometimes a three-track original tape is strictly a WORK-PART and is not meant to be anything else. Dynamic range increase is not always the last word; tonality is the key for me; dynamics and sound-staging come second.
     
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  24. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Also don't forget about the 2-track 7.5ips commercial reel-to-reels of these titles. Some (most) of those also sound incredible. Much of the reason lies in two things: 2 track/7.5ips (commercial tapes were no longer issued in this format by around 1960...too expensive when you could use half the tape with 4 track; then half the tape again with 3.75ips later on!); and the early 2-tracks were dubbed in something close to real time!

    And you paid through the nose for them...Take a look at the following table, quoted from a 1957 RCA reel-to-reel insert:

    Maximum Maximum
    Monaural Stereophonic
    Designation Price Playing Time Playing Time
    A $6.95 32 minutes 16 minutes
    B $8.95 42 minutes 21 minutes
    C $10.95 52 minutes 26 minutes
    D $12.95 62 minutes 31 minutes
    E $14.95 72 minutes 36 minutes
    F $16.95 82 minutes 41 minutes
    G $18.95 92 minutes 46 minutes

    Note that these are 2-track tapes.

    Take a look at the price on that 41-46 minute stereo tape...That's $18.95
    in 1957 dollars!!!!! Using the Inflation Calculator, that's $122.58 in 2003 dollars!!!!! And audiophiles today complain about the high price of reissues :)

    Oh, and even if you could afford those tapes, recall that the equipment most people had to listen to them on wasn't exactly great by today's standards...

    Even that cheap "A" designation tape was $44.96 in 2003 dollars. And for that you got a whopping 16 minutes of stereo.

    There's a reason the 2-track 7.5ips reels from that era (RCA, Mercury, etc.) are so hard to find in general!

    Kwad
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Some sound quite nice, yes. But some (and just some), since they skip that crucial WESTREX/SCULLY cutting lathe "extra" boost, don't have quite the power of the LP version. Others do however...
     
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