To Superphiles

To those of you with the really high end equipment...

...invite me over sometime to hear it. I'm dying to hear it. The first time hearing it has to be like going to Disney Land.

I have no idea how good it sounds. I certainly don't have an audiophile system but it sounds real good. I wonder how much better things can be with systems where single components (like a turntable) costs more than my entire audio system.

 

I have an invitation from a member, but I don't know if it still stands. If i'm ever in California...

I have heard high-end systems, but not in the best settings or situations. It wasn't enough to make a judgement. I've been in recording studios...

 

Yeah, unless the individual has gone to some trouble in set-up, really exspensive equipment can be a bit of a let down, or, a lot of a let down. I heard some Thiel CS7's run by some Mark Levinson amplification and it didn't sound any better than my system at home. I hit stop on the CD player and I could hear the room's reverb die down in a couple of seconds. I think it could have used a little treatment. I've yet to hear a deep or wide soundstage from a stereo, with the exception of a dog barking on Roger Water's AMUSED TO DEATH, and only that effect struck me, via Q sound. Is it me or the systems I've heard? For now I'm willing to believe it's just the systems.

 

We'll get a mini van and all go together.

 

The most important parts of any system are the speakers. You can buy the midline receivers/amps that have good quality, midline turntables that have good quality, but for good quality speakers, you have to search for them the most. Higher end equipment and lower end speakers do not go hand in hand but midline equipment and going all out on speakers is a good idea.

 

Really hi-end systems don't knock you over the head with how good they are, especially in the first few minutes. It takes some time to realize what is so special with what they're doing. The first time I heard a truly hi-end system, I felt relieved that my relatively modest system wasn't as far off the mark as I thought. But as I've upgraded my system over the years I've realized that the differences were more subtle, but ultimately more meaningful, than I thought.

Also, if you have a modest system and you set it up correctly, and pay attention to the room acoustics, then you're usually most of the way there anyway.

In my opinion, if a system immediately sounds completely different than anything else you've ever listened to, even if it seems like in a favorable way, it's probably doing something wrong, or you will eventually grow tired of it.

 

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This is so true!

 

And yet, yer description of yer new Michell/SME/Koetsu combo makes me drool over what might yet be. What's locked in the grooves that I can't afford to unlock, or can I? Perhaps I'm just missing an ingredient or haven't got the ingredients I have locked in just so. It's frustrating to a point, even though I'm largely happy with my sound, that I might be missing something special. It's even more frustrating that our chosen hobby can be so frikkin' expensive.

 

Grant, of course it still stands.

 

If it sounds good to you, then it is good.

 

You are right Drew, this is why one can buy midline components and get quality speakers and the sound will be to your satisfaction, generally speaking. After all, the speakers are the most important part of any audio system. What sounds good to you is what matters.

 

Well, when I first heard the Michell/SME/Koetsu in my home system, I noticed that the sound wasn't bigger and more obvious or louder or more dynamic or anything like that. What I noticed, and what I usually notice whenever I make a meaningful upgrade to my system, is that music seemed to make more sense through it, that it was better organized and more easily absorbed. That sounds pretty ethereal, I know, but it's like when reviewers talk about about ease and flow. That's what you get with the good stuff. It all sounds natural. You stop doing what I call "listening with a clipboard," that is, noting everything that's right and wrong with the sound. You know you're listening to the good stuff when you forget everything else but the music, and you get swallowed up by it. That's what it's all about, right?

 

Well put.

 

Can't say mine's completely, totally and thoroughly an "audiophile" system, but I will say that I've been getting a lot of enjoyment out of vinyl lately. I think some of the "CD generation" would be surprised to hear how good vinyl can sound. Just look for the big "Michigan" flag out front.

I used to hang out on Woodward Ave. quite a bit in the mid 80's. Back then, I could make a run up Woodward and hit four high-end audio stores: Absolute Sound (my favorite), Almas, Audio Dimensions and The Gramaphone. Detroit quit having stereo shows back in the late 70s, so this was the only way to hear and see the equipment I read about in magazines.

 

Actually I ripped the 4558 op-amp amp out of the signal path of my budget Sony 685V SACD player the other day and replaced it with a 8066 (basically replaced a $.50 part with a $5.50 part). I think its a tremendous improvement. But if I would've screwed up my SACD player I'd never admit to it here.

 

Drew--what possessed you to do that? (Other than the improved sound.) Did you find a compatiblity listing for op amps? (I take it the two are pin-compatible.) I've been out of the electronics loop so long that I don't know if I'd pull the right thing out to replace it. I'd dig into my own Pioneer DV45A here, but with so much of these players being digital, I"d be afraid of messing something else up.

 

I've been reading a lot of stuff on diyaudio.com and audiocircle.com from people who are doing this to everything from their cd players to sound cards. I also have an electronics background so the prospect doesn't faze me too much. I usually have the warranty voided in all my consumer electronics in about 20 minutes.

Yes these two op-amps are pin compatible. Some other options would've been Analog Devices 8620, Burr Brown OPA2132 or Burr Brown OPA2604 (which is used in the Sony XA777ES). I'd post some pics from my digital camera but you'd see a patch I had to create from screwing up a trace on the circuit board. I was in a state of panic for a minute or two

If you have Adobe Reader you can checkout the data sheets on these IC's here:

http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Analog Devices/Web Data/AD8610,20.pdf
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Texas Instruments/Web data/RC4558.pdf
http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/Analog Devices/Web Data/AD8065,66.pdf

I'm going to leave it the way it is for awhile to get used to the sound, but most op-amps can be biased into class A with a 5K resistor from the output pin to V- (the next tweak).

 

I should go check those sites out. I haven't tinkered with electronics in quite awhile.

 

Sorry! I didn't mean to make you have to remove your place of residence!

 

I disagree... the most important part thing is the room excellent room acoustic is the best way to get a superb sound from your system.

 

Hmm. Interesting. I do have a CD player or two that should be working but have fallen out of use. I wonder if..

 

Sput,

If you're ever near Cape Cod, Mass, stop by anytime!!

George

 

You can easily get an unbalanced system if you follow this strategy. I prefer the sound of cheaper speakers with a good source and a good amp, than good speakers at the business end of midline equipment.

I'll give you an example.

I had an Arcam Alpha 9 CDP, Arcam Alpha 10 integrated and Paradigm MiniMonitors system for about a year when I upgraded. I bought the $400 speakers on the same day as the CDP and amp and knew that I could have paid a lot more for speakers to go in the system, but I did not want to buy $2000 speakers without a decent amount of study, listening comparisons and home trials. But of course I wanted music and the little Paradigms appealed at the pricepoint.

Over the next 12 months I bought a pair of Sound Anchor 3-post stands, made my own speaker cables, changed outlets, auditioned power cords etc. Then I upgraded big time to a BAT VK50SE preamp, Welborne Lab Laurel IIx Ultimate Upgrade SETs, and Coincident Super Eclipse II.

Not all these pieces arrived at the same time - in fact the BAT arrived first - about a month (as it turned out) before amp and speakers. I opened up the Alpha 10 and flipped the little dip-switch inside to enable me to use an external preamp and connected the BAT.

I knew my system very well at the time. It had been pretty stable, with marginal improvements wrought by stands, cables etc. But I was totally shocked by the monumental increase in quality, refinement, soundstage and musicality changing the preamp section made. My enjoyment level jumped up amazingly. Honestly, I was so surprised. There was a weak point in my system - and it was not the cheap speakers.

One of the things you pay for as you move up the price range within a speaker manufacturer's product line is bass power and extension. More money buys more bass - but not necessarily better sound.

It's easy when visiting a dealer doing comparison shopping to hear differences in speakers. We've all done it surely. Speakers sound so obviously different, and when comparing (say) three pairs in a demo it's easy to have a preference. Most of the time, it's the more expensive one that appeals.

Comparing CD players or amplifiers in a similar dealer environment doesn't seem so clear cut. And this is why, in my opinion, some feel that loudspeakers are the most critical component.

I dare say they are the most personal component, but it's easy to oversell their importance.

 

Very good point. My speakers may not be the Martin-Logan of my dreams , and at this point my speakers are actually less expensive than other pieces I've bought...but I have heard many improvements as I've upgraded bits and pieces over the years. Yes, I'm looking for a more upscale speaker now, but I can't say I'm fanatical about it. I may be as inclined to build my own speakers next time around as I would to buy them.

I do think speakers make the biggest difference in sound, but I certainly don't recommend my friends buy excellent speakers fed by mid-fi crap electronics. As you said...balance. It was many years ago, but I went with a friend of mine to pick out a system for his house. We ended up with one of the better Denon receivers, Boston Acoustics speakers and a decent CD player (also a Denon). Not exactly high-end, but the components all complemented each other nicely. And he got better sound, IMHO, than someone who would walk into an appliance store and go nuts with the mid fi gear and a credit card.