Talk Talk SACDs... WOW!

[markl]

There are currently two SACDs available from Talk Talk's catalog, and luckily they're exactly the two discs you'd want, Colour of Spring, and Spirit of Eden. These are both *extremely RARE* imports and quite expensive unless you know where to get them. These are a couple of the best SACDs in my collection, I must say. I know there are people here who would appreciate this stuff.

For the un-initiated, Talk Talk were an English 80's band best known in the U.S. for the hit single "It's My Life" (recently covered by No Doubt of all people ). This was a band that progressed in Beatle years; the Color of Spring, their 3rd album, was the last to have any trace of the pop band they started out as just a few years before. After this, their music would become very ambient, free-form, avante garde, and experiemntal. Their last two albums are way way out there.

Color of Spring is my favorite from the band, it's still easily relatable and has a few "hits" on it (Living in Another World, Give It Up, and Life's What You Make It) with the balance pointing more toward their new direction.

This record has so many textures, rhythms, sonic details, it's a veritable feast for the ears, and tailor-made for SACD. This record must have taken forever to make and to mix. Talk Talk have a very ethereal, brooding, wistful, melancholy, hypnotic sound, this is an album you don't so much listen to as you *experience*.

It has a few famous people playing on it-- Steve Winwood on keyboards, Danny Thompson's bass work, Robbie McIntosh and David Rhodes on guitar, various choirs, and other guest musicians.

Is it worth the $44 that sites like amazon and cduniverse want for it? What album is? I was able to get it for $25 shipped off ebay, and it was worth every penny to me. Brought back so many memories, I had this album on cassette when it first came out in 1986. It's really aged well, it sounds very fresh, even better than I remember, and proves that not all music from the 80s suffered from lousy production. Highly recomended! You can buy it for $25 shipped to the USA right here: http://www.smokecds.com/cd/33687

The follow-up, Spirit of Eden, is a very "difficult" album, the group has left behind all traces of it's pop music past and embarked on a path of almost willfully obscure sonic experimentation. This is one of those records where artists go hog-wild on the record company's dime, there is no concession to radio, all these tracks are very long. It's very hard to describe, these aren't "songs" so much as very sophisticated tone poems, they set a mood rather than tell a story. Still, this is very rich, well-made, extremely detailed stuff that requires patience but rewards your attention.

It can be found for around $25 shipped from www.smokecds.com in New Zealand for a mere $25. This site was very reliable for me, shipped quickly and arrived safe and sound. With the conversion rate on those crazy New Zealand dollars you end up with probably the best price you can find on the net for this stuff. See here: http://www.smokecds.com/cd/33686

Sound quality on both these is excellent, IMO, check it out!

[misterbozz]

I remember talk talk, I think a couple of the members came from Basildon near where I grew up, at least they were always touted as local. I might have to investigate the Colour of Spring.

[Squealy]

I love Spirit of Eden as well as its followup Laughing Stock, but I still wish Talk Talk had made a couple more albums in the mode of Colour of Spring before moving on to the more experimental music. I think that album is a perfect balance of pop and art.

[Dan]

I would like to find the Art Of Noise and Propadganda SACD imports. Isn't there a Spandau Ballet as well?

[soundboy]

Yes, Spandau Ballet's "True" is on stereo hybrid SACD. And it's excellent.

[kwadguy]

Originally Posted by squealy

I love Spirit of Eden as well as its followup Laughing Stock, but I still wish Talk Talk had made a couple more albums in the mode of Colour of Spring before moving on to the more experimental music. I think that album is a perfect balance of pop and art.

Yup, that pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly...

I remember when Colour of Spring came out...It did absolutely NOTHING on radio or on the charts (in the US, anyway). DOA. But I talk(talk)ed it up to my friends as the closest thing I'd heard to good progressive rock in a long time, and a lot of them took the bait and thanked me for it!

Incidentally, the evolution of Talk Talk goes even deeper and faster...The song "Talk Talk" was originally recorded by the group Reaction, Mark Hollis' first group. The only place I've ever seen it is on the now-rare Beggars Banquet compilation titled Streets from 1978. (Got my copy in the cutout rack of Big Bens nee Warehouse in Sherman Oaks for $0.99 around 1980). This original version of Talk Talk is a lot rougher/rockier than the synth-pop version issued under the Talk Talk band name.

Kwad

[Chris R]

Great band. Are these discs hybrid as I do not have an SACD player? If so, how is the redbook side? Thanks.

[Claude]

"Spirit of Eden" is excellent psychadelic stuff, completely different from their synth-pop hits. The follower "Laughing stock" is in similar style and also highly recommended, though not available on SACD.

I'm however not convinced that the SACD of "Spirit of Eden" is a sonic improvement over the original CD (I think there was a remastered CD too). It is more detailed and dynamic but also a bit too bright and light (missing warmth and bass fundament). In my view and on my system, the original CD sound suits the music better. But that's a matter of taste.

I bought the SACD immediately when it was issued in Europe, for a good price (15 Euro), now it is much more expensive (22 Euro at Amazon.de and .fr).

The SACDs are hybrid.

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/1429
http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/1375

[bonjo]

Originally Posted by Claude

I'm however not convinced that the SACD of "Spirit of Eden" is a sonic improvement over the original CD (I think there was a remastered CD too). It is more detailed and dynamic but also a bit too bright and light (missing warmth and bass fundament). In my view and on my system, the original CD sound suits the music better. But that's a matter of taste.

I have the 1988 original (non-remastered) UK EMI cd and the SACD.

Is there a night-and-day difference between the two? No. I think it depends on whether you prefer your Spirit of Eden with a little murkiness (original) vs. added detail (sacd), and on a record like this murkiness is not always a bad thing.

One minor strike against the SACD is that 'Side 1' is indexed as 3 separate tracks, vs. the one-long-track on the original cd. Although Side 1 has 3 'songs', the band wanted the cd indexed in this manner so that you'd listen to them as a single piece. Not a big deal unless you're an absolute purist.

- joe s

[citizenkeith]

"Spirit of Eden" is one of my favorite albums of all time.

Tape-Op magazine printed excerpts from engineer Phil Brown's upcoming book. This included a an entire excerpt on the recording of "Spirt of Eden." Going from memory, here are some tidbits:

- Talk Talk were keen on working with Brown because of his work with Traffic
- They worked in the studio for long hours. They set up psychedelic lighting and turned off all "normal" lighting (and blocked outside lighting). As a result, they were working without a sense of time, and when they left the studio at the end of the day (or night) they were disoriented.
- The album was recorded on digital tape, so when Mark Hollis wanted a song slowed down ("Desire" or "Eden," not sure which one), Brown had to slow down the song while keeping the pitch the same. I believe he has to use a specific A/D converter to accomplish it.
- None of the music was written beforehand, so they were composing in the studio. Then Mark Hollis wrote lyrics and sometimes had to edit the recordings to accomodate.
- Lastly, they brought in tons of guest musicians near the end, and had them come up with parts on the spot.

There's much more, so it's worth seeking out that issue of Tape-Op. I think we can all agree that the results are spectacular.

I'd love to hear Steve tackle this one.

[Claude]

Originally Posted by bigolbug

- The album was recorded on digital tape, so when Mark Hollis wanted a song slowed down ("Desire" or "Eden," not sure which one), Brown had to slow down the song while keeping the pitch the same. I believe he has to use a specific A/D converter to accomplish it.

The liner notes of the SACD (which seem to be taken from the 1997 reissue CD) say it's an analogue recording:

"This CD has been digitally remastered from the original 1/2" analogue masters (...)

PCM digital remaster (P) 1997
DSD digital remaster (P) 2003"

[LeeS]

Mark,

Thank you for the review. Looks very interesting...

[markl]

I'm however not convinced that the SACD of "Spirit of Eden" is a sonic improvement over the original CD (I think there was a remastered CD too). It is more detailed and dynamic but also a bit too bright and light (missing warmth and bass fundament). In my view and on my system, the original CD sound suits the music better. But that's a matter of taste.

Hi Claude, that's one of the problems with trying to compare the same CD/SACD on diffrent equipment, I agree, it's not an apples-to-apples comparo, and there will be variations.

I can say that for me, on my system, after switching between the old original CD version vs. the new SACD version, there is no doubt in my mind that the SACD remaster is better and preferable.

Still overall, for the Talk Talk newbie, I recommend Colour of Spring over Spirit. I have no idea about the reliability of this seller, but here's a copy of Colour.. on ebay right now... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

At this point, it's at a pretty good price with conversion of pounds to dollars... Wherever you get it, IMO, Colour of Spring is a great demo SACD, it's exactly the kind of recording that screams out for hi-rez, and has ben masterfully done...

Cheers!

[Squealy]

Originally Posted by bonjo

One minor strike against the SACD is that 'Side 1' is indexed as 3 separate tracks, vs. the one-long-track on the original cd. Although Side 1 has 3 'songs', the band wanted the cd indexed in this manner so that you'd listen to them as a single piece. Not a big deal unless you're an absolute purist.

My 1988 EMI/Manhattan CD has the three pieces indexed as three separate songs. Did the British CD have them all on one track?

[Rich Malloy]

Thanks a bunch, Mark! I've had these discs recommended to me many times, and I've only been waiting for a deal... and in the meanwhile worrying whether they'll go OOP as some of the other Euro-only SACDs apparently have (Bryan Ferry's "Frantic"?).

So, I ordered these from smokecds for a grand total of $44.04-USD (including airmail shipping to Boston), by far the best deal I've seen! Many, many thanks.

[markl]

Right on, Rich! I am very happy to have been of service. smokecds of New Zealand worked out very well for me, let us know how you did! Rock on!

[citizenkeith]

Originally Posted by Claude

The liner notes of the SACD (which seem to be taken from the 1997 reissue CD) say it's an analogue recording:

"This CD has been digitally remastered from the original 1/2" analogue masters (...)

PCM digital remaster (P) 1997
DSD digital remaster (P) 2003"

That's because they mixed to analogue tape. But the basic tracks were in fact both digital AND analogue.

I'll dig out that issue of Tape Op and post more specifics soon.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by miike

Great band. Are these discs hybrid as I do not have an SACD player? If so, how is the redbook side? Thanks.

They are hybrids but I couldn't tell you how the CD layer shapes up against the other CD issues.

All I can say is that the original UK CDs sound great - I would seek these out (probably very cheap on ebay) rather than get the hybrids just for the CD layer.

As for the SACD layer on the Talk Talk discs - they do sound very good. In particular the separation is very impressive.

I really hope that the "It's My Life" album get the SACD treatment - that and "Colour Of Spring" are both great albums. "Spirit Of Eden" is well worth trying (you may love it, as I do) but is a little less accessible....

[bonjo]

Originally Posted by squealy

My 1988 EMI/Manhattan CD has the three pieces indexed as three separate songs. Did the British CD have them all on one track?

The original UK EMI-Parlophone CD has 4 tracks total.

- joe s

[citizenkeith]

I found the issue of Tape Op in which Phil Brown discusses the recording of "Spirit of Eden." It's issue #31 from September 2002. I did mis-remember a couple things: they used a harmoniser to adjust the pitch of one track, and they recorded analogue for basic tracks and dumped it to digital 32 track for additional overdubs before mixdown to analogue tape.

Here are excerpts from the article:


"The album was recorded in Wessex Studios, Highbury.... The first session was May 11, 1987."

"They brought in their own lighting, which consisted of a 1960s oil projector, a strobe and four sound activated flashing disco lights."

"The drums were placed in a booth near the microphone cupboard and screened off to avoid as much leakage as possible.... Mark's guitar amplifier, an original Vox AC30, was positioned along the far wall of the studio and placed at the beginning of a corridor made of screens. The microphones were positioned at the other end. I constructed a roof for the corridor, made out of screens a large double mattress, to reduce the sound leakage to a minimum. The keyboards were arranged in a cluster in the middle of the room and with this basic set-up we were ready to begin recording."

".... we approached the album as if it was night-time in 1967. I used no Dolby, and we confined ourselves to equipment and microphones that were around prior to 1967: Neumann U67, Neumann U48, Shure 57 and AKG C12a. The musical equipment included a Hammond organ, a piano, two harmoniums, and the Vox AC30 amplifier. A few exceptions to our 1967 "time frame" included a Neumann "Head" microphone and a set of contact mics (for Lee's drums) and a Mitsubishi 32-track digital tape machine. Otherwise, where possible, we used relatively old-fashioned equipment. The lighting created an atmosphere that could only be described as psychedelic. This was fun at first, and quite relaxing, and I was blissfully unaware that we would spend most of the following year in this almost total darkness."

"We all disliked the sound of the Solid State Logic (SSL) console and tried by-passing it whenever possible. We hired Neve and Focusrite mic amps and EQ units and plugged our mics directly into these units instead of the SSL. "

"Lee started proceedings by playing a selected rhythm, hypnotically, for many hours, only stopping occasionally to hand roll a cigarette or to adjust his lighting. Sometimes, as we recorded the drums, Mark and Tim would play along on guitar and keyboards. These performances... were treated as guides and were replaced later, once the drums were mastered. We worked five-day weeks (Monday to Friday) from 11am to midnight during May, June and July."

"Once we had the backing tracks recorded for the six songs (working titles - "Modell", "Camel", "Maureen", "Norm", "inheritance", "Snow in Britain", and "Eric"), we made safety copies and transferred our 24-track analogue masters to the Mitsubishi digital 32-track machine. We recorded them in the desired running order of the album and left approximately two minutes of clean tape between each song on side one. These gaps would be used later to record an intro and two "link" sections." We began to build up our songs, adding electric guitars, dobro, acoustic 12-string guitar, piano, harmoniums, Hammond, and percussion. Great care was taken over sounds and approach and many hours simply disappeared."

At this point they took a break.... "Almost three months later, the 19th of October.... we resumed at Wessex 1 for overdubs."

"On the first day of recording Mark arrived and after tea and toast said, "I'm happy with all our backing tracks except one - "Maureen." I think the feel of the track is great and just what I was looking for, but ideally it should be down a semitone in pitch. Is it possible to take it down? But I don't want to the tempo to change." Time and I sat there quietly thinking through the options available to us. With the technology available at the time, these options were sadly limited and we both reached the same conclusion. "Digital detuning with a harmoniser is the only real choice if we are to keep the speed unchanged," said Tim."

"The task Mark left us with was far from simple, The studio was equipped with an AMS Harmoniser, which enabled the pitch to be changed without affecting the tempo. Unfortunately when we tried it out this machine constantly generated digital errors so Tim rented a more sophisticated version, an AMS Time Align Harmoniser. Track by track we de-tuned and re-recorded the main instruments to a clean tape on the Mistubishi digital machine. This was asking a great deal of the harmoniser and it did not handle the drums well. The machine also generated digital errors so we ended up having to stop, rewind and drop-in every five or six seconds on all our relevant tracks.... At last, after three days of intense concentration, we finished de-tuning the instruments."

"We now moved into overdubs on a grand scale, slowly building up parts and textures. Over the next three months an army of musicians came and played... we would record eight tracks of our "guess" musician and then mix down the best bits to a master track on the Mitsubishi. Sometimes, out of all eight tracks over a nine-minute song - a possible maximum of 72 minutes - all we ended up with were a few seconds of music.... Some musicians were treated to the full length of side one, some 22 minutes. Recording the eight tracks would take about three and a half hours. We would then spend the next two days sorting out the performances.... It was a slow process."

"I used no effects during mixing, just an ancient spring reverb (found in an old rack at Wessex), an EMT echo plate and a digital delay. The majority of the sounds were kept as we had recorded them. By the middle of February it was all complete."

"Tim and I mastered Spirit of Eden" at Abbey Road on March 11, 1988. We had finished 7 months of work, spread out over an 11-month period."


By the way, he did reveal what a few of those working titles turned out to be:
"Maureen = "Eden"
"Eric = "Desire"
"Snow In Berlin" = "I Believe in You"

I have no idea what "Camel," "Modell," and "Norm" turned into. One would be "The Rainbow" and another "Wealth." One of the songs must not have been released.