Technically speaking, what is the "warm sound"?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by audio, Mar 13, 2004.

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  1. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana
    I know that tubes are obviously reputed to have a "warm sound". Certain tube amplifiers seem to have a romantic, euphoric sound that is very sweet and pleasant. I have thought that this sound is due to either A) failing components B) the emphasis of even order harmonics that is a general property of tube components C) pleasant sounding distortions or a natural compression/limiting effect D) certain design choices on the part of the manufacturer.

    The thing is that I have also heard WARM sounding solid state electronics and WARM sounding speakers. For example, one such system was an Arcam A65 integrated amp with a Music Hall CD25 and a pair of Jean Marie Reynaud Arpeggione speakers. This system was EXTREMELY honey colored and very, very euphoric sounding. It sounded just like a tube system in a lot of ways.

    This brings me to my question: obviously there must be a way that you can tune a pair of speakers or a solid state amp or source to sound "warm" or "tubey". I presume that the root of creating this sound is boosting or emphasis of certain frequencies or the roll-off of certain frequencies? If so, what are they? Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

    If you wanted to eq something to sound "warm", what would you do?
     
  2. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    ........ anything played in California or in Toronto in the summer would be warm.... :D

    I think it's distortion, actually. My old HK separates still sound warm - their philosophy was "sound", not "specifications" for their equipment. Going by that, I'd say that it's the way they build the component.

    So you can't "tune" anything already built unless you start changing capacitors, etc. and even then, it's a big guesstimate of what to do.

    However, I'm not a technician. Or builder of - anything! Just what I think....
     
  3. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana
    If it was distortion alone, that wouldn't explain the modern ultra-warm sounding audiophile gear I heard.
     
  4. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    Dylan's "Like a Rolling Stone" on the DCC Highway 61 Gold Cee Dee has a Warm sound...Lush, incredibly supple, fluid like...:love:
     
  5. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    'Phew! I thought you were gonna yell at me, Michael!

    Lets revise my first post to say... California, Florida or in Toronto in the summer... :D

    Prix: Tubes = distortion. That what my techie told me. I disliked his "pure power" amp that he lent me. Amazing specs but... :puke:
     
  6. James Glennon

    James Glennon Senior Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    I know that tubes are obviously reputed to have a "warm sound". Certain tube amplifiers seem to have a romantic, euphoric sound that is very sweet and pleasant.

    I always feel when I hear remarks like this that it is a back-handed compliment.

    I use tube equipment and it has everything that transistors don't.

    Naturalness, fuller treble, tightish bass, better imaging. If you want to refer to that as warm, give me more please.

    One thing above all else is that I never get hearing fatigue listening to tube equipment but I did for years when I had transistor amplification.
    JG
     
  7. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana

    Exactly, and we know that part of that is the tube pres that Steve used. But what is the other part of the equation? I'm not meaning to compare solid state vs tubes in this thread. There are warm sounding recordings and electronics from both. Tubes obviously sound better than solid state because they are literally more musical. They have the "magic". What I am wondering is how do you make something sound warm without tubes? How do you make a tube amp sound cold and solid state?
     
  8. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Have Audio Research design it?

    :)

    Audiophile humor..
     
  9. -Ben

    -Ben Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington DC Area
    :laugh: :laugh:
     
  10. Drew

    Drew Senior Member

    Location:
    Grand Junction, CO
    Speaking only for myself "warmth" is when the music lacks an overly sterile, analytical sound, with maybe a little of that midrange magic thrown in.
     
  11. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    My definition of "warm" or "warmth" sound is a smooth, slightly rolled off highs and a nice bass bump somewhere in the 250Hz region.

    The equipment used or how the sound gets there doesn't matter, as long as the sound gets there.
     
  12. MikePh

    MikePh Forum Resident/Song and Dance Man

    I'm not sure, but I know it when I see it ... ;)
     
  13. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana

    Okay, this is exactly the type of answer I was looking for. But it must be more than that? All I can say is that there is this honey colored euphoria that I've heard before and I don't know where it comes from. It seems like it's more than just rolled off with a bass hump.
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Prix,

    In all seriousness, I have like 5 different tube amps and have heard hundreds more. They all sound different from each other and none of them sound "warm" to me, but they all basically sound good; some wonderful.

    If you're trying to "bottle" a certain sound to use on a solid state amp or something, forget it. It's more than EQ....

    What IS it that you are trying to do?
     
  15. Johnny C.

    Johnny C. Ringo's Biggest Fan

    Location:
    Brooklyn, USA
     
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    I don't have any tube amp that rolls off the highs and bumps the 250 cycle range. This is an urban legend. If this is happening, there is mismatch somewhere in the system...
     
  17. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    Yell at you? Never! Just love ya!:):thumbsup: Your smooth personality
    flows:)
     
  18. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!


    *I* am not ascribing that sound to tubes. That must be someone else. I know that tubes can sound as cold as anything. I was just explaining my interpretation of "warmth".
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Grant,

    I know. I was commenting on the fact that Johnny C. said that this why why he prefers tubes over solid state...
     
  20. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    I see.
     
  21. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    There are so many things that contribute to a warm sound, from interconnects, to the room, to componants with a treble rolloff...
     
  22. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana

    Okay, fair enough. Well a couple of things. First off, for the record....none of my tube amps sound particularly warm either. Rich, sparkly, and magical yes.....but not really 'warm'. I think my system tends to lean toward the warm and forgiving, but I also believe that a truly nice tube piece such as the Marantz 8b for example, does not and should not sound warm. It sounds accurate and natural. Anyway:

    1) I've been listening to the Kinks "Lola..." lately and really enjoying the hell out of it. The problem is that I only have it on cassette and lp. My turntable is not finished, so that leaves the tape. My component player is in the shop right now getting new heads so I have to listen on my girlfriend's crappy boombox. It sounds horrid and is fatiguing as heck. So I went over to it and it's got all those boost this and boost that buttons as well as a multi-band eq and I'm thinking to myself..."how can I use this eq and make this box sound warmer"?

    2) I am still puzzled by the sound of that Arcam/Reynaud setup. It was all solid state, but it was one of the gooiest, warmest sounding setups I've ever heard. It was overkill, though. There was definitely obvious coloration, but it wasn't necessarily unpleasant. So I'm wondering..how do they do that? What is the technical explanation, or semi-technical explanation as Grant offered, for a warm piece?

    3) My recording studio is all digital. I now have tube preamps, but sometimes it still sounds a little cold. I'm wondering what to boost or roll-off where to give the final mix a little boost towards the warm and euphoric, or perhaps it's not possible.

    BTW, Steve...what are your five tube amps? The Marantz, the Mac, your Sherwood stuff, the VAC, what else? Just curious.
     
  23. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Your question number 1: Basic EQ. Kill some midrange, kill some top, you know, whatever it needs.

    Your question number 2: Something was "voiced" to sound that way.

    Your question number 3: You need NEUTRAL in a studio. How else can you do a good mix? You need to spectrum analyze the playback sound using pink noise and a scope. If it's too cold in there, fix something. If you get your studio to sound too warm, everything you mix will be too bright and annoying when played back anywhere else.. (as you darn well know!)


    The amps I have right now are:
    Sherwood
    Marantz 8B
    Grover monoblocks
    McIntosh 30's
    VAC 70/70 Triode, 140 monoblocks
    Wavac 300B, 805

    All are listed in my profile..
     
  24. audio

    audio New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    guyana
    Thanks for the reply, Steve.
     
  25. Mart

    Mart New Member

    I usualy notice that most warm sounding amps are ear-marked by low-level white-noise & modest output impedance. However, I think its cucial factor is a modest slew rate. Basically, it's just lethargic enough to damp most reasonances but still dynamic. A real art. As such, the resulting sound is more convincing.
     
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