The Band - Music from Big Pink MFSL 2012 Speed Issues? (with samples!)

I've decided to start an entirely new Thread for this subject, as I believe it deserves its own specific attention

The Band's Music From Big Pink 2012 MFSL vinyl pressing has speed issues. Specifically, the master tape used on the MFSL vinyl was played back SLOWER than the MFSL SACD.

There, I said it. In fact, all the copies I own have some speed issue, and here is what I have discovered. I am also including sound samples taken from both sides of the record to prove I am not crazy, or crazily obsessive!
I am very sensitive to pitch for two reasons: I grew up in the digital era (neglible wow/flutter), and I have perfect-pitch (i.e., when you play a note, I can name it by hearing it). I am a musician, and can tune guitars by ear.
Thus when I A/B'd the new MFSL pressing of Music from Big Pink, I was startled by the discrepancy in speed, which resulted in a change of pitch. I know have proof if this problem. Here's what I compared, with samples you can download of each edition:
http://sdrv.ms/P0LlMO (download those files here. I recorded directly from my preamp to my soundcard)

MFSL SACD, #UDSACD 2004 (released 2008)

Appears to be pitch-perfect. This is the correct speed, when compared to 440hz A tuning Listen to the organ's G-note at the beginning of Long Black Veil. It is exactly a G-note. Now compare that note to the other copies!​

MFSL vinyl 1-346 (2012 pressing)

Noticeably slower, and thus lower in pitch. When playing a 440-A tuned instrument to this pressing, the music is lower in pitch.​

1st/Early Pressing Capitol Rainbow (matrix#'s: SKAO1-2955-A-3; SKAO-2-2955-A-3

This one matches the MFSL vinyl closely in pitch, and is thus also slower than the MFSL SACD. When playing a 440-A tuned instrument, this pressing is slightly lower than the instrument. ​

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So what happened? Did MFSL want to match the speed/tone of the 2012 vinyl to the original pressings? Did MFSL correct the pitch issues digitally on the SACD?

What do you guys think? I would imagine the organ in Long Black Veil was pitch-perfect when played back in 1968 (kinda hard to adjust pitch on an organ, unlike a guitar), and the SACD plays back that note exactly correct. Both the early pressing and the 2012 MFSL vinyl pressing are slightly lower, which leads me to the conclusion that something was done differently for the SACD. Did they calibrate the machine better for the SACD mastering?

Strange to say the least!

(NOTE: I trust my turntable setup, and I do not have these issues with any other pressing. I FREQUENTLY A/B my vinyl pressings to newer digital remasters, and this pitch problem is never present.)

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the SACD is correct, given what you've laid out here. The new MFSL has produced some wonderful reissues but a number of issues have slipped by them on occasion.

 

I was surprised, because the clarity is the same between the 2012 vinyl and sacd -- they definitely are using the same tape here -- but the pitch was so different to my ears. I would imagine the lathe was turning slightly slower than 33.333 rpm, resulting in the discrepancy.

Interesting!

 

Wouldn't the lathe be spinning too fast if the LP plays back too slow when spinning at normal 33.333?

 

bah, you're right! It would be spinning too fast, thus the lower tone.

 

LOL, it's wrong, and that's all that matters. Just having fun Chris. I have both SACD and LP, but haven't really compared yet. I was loving the vinyl sound, but now all I'll be thinking about is incorrect pitch!

 

Glad you started a thread on this topic, as this is one of my favorite albums and your observations have attracted my curiosity. My MoFi SACD is my go to version of this album, though I also own a worn Rainbow Capital Pressing. (Warning, I'm fairly young for this forum so I didn't grow up with the Rainbow LP and recently switch to SACD. I owned the original CD and then the SACD and only recently acquired the LP).

Anyway I just can't wrap my head around the idea this album has been widely played and even repressed several times with this same speed/pitch issue! Do you think its possible this issue exists in the original tape and was digitally corrected with the SACD? Chris, do you have an original or remaster CD to compare as well?

 

Fluffskul, I don't have a non-remastered CD, but I do have the greatest hits comp, which was remastered sometime in the 2000s, and has many songs from MFBP.
I'll compare some of those tracks to the SACD, and get back to you.

I'm kinda surprised how this forum can get quite obsessive about the littlest recording details, masterings, etc, yet be so reticent about this subject. This, to me, is pretty major in terms of variation!

 

Chris,
Have you been able to find a setting to match the pitch between the MFSL LP and SACD with the pitch control on your SL1200?

 

What about the MFSL original Gold CD?

 

Ha ha, it is funny, isn't it? If you had started a "brickwalling" thread (certainly the most abused/misused term on the forum), you'd have 200 posts already.

I'm glad to see the SACD has been acquitted. I re-listened to it last week when this issue first came up, and thought it sounded spot-on perfect in terms of the pitch and timbre of the voices.

 

Have you checked the running times of each song?

Never mind just checked them myself with your samples.

 

thanks for the clips, great side by side and I see what you're saying. I have to say though, I think I only know the slower version...

 

Since two lps, cut in radically different ways, are both slow, what have you done to verify the speed of your turntable?

 

Gotta agree with this here, as that was my first thought. Do you have a digital and analog version of another title you can compare pitch-wise?

 

Very interesting.

 

No need for another comparison. Just put on the LP, drop the needle, find landmark on the lp label, count 100 revolutions. That should take 3 minutes, plus or minus a second.

 

Glad I didn't spend money on that new MFSL vinyl. Thanks for the tip!

 

yes, I could post samples of another digital/analog comparison to prove my turntable is not to blame. On the surface, i can assure you my turntable is spot-on with every other recording. This is why i was so surprised that MFBP was noticeably off speed.

I will have samples up today of another recording to prove my TT is accurate. (it's also worth noting that the MFSL and early pressings are at two slightly different speeds themselves, thus exhonerating my TT)

I'll have a link up here in a few hours!

 

What really should happen here, is contacting Mobile Fidelity and bring it to their attention. Kreig Wunderlich did the re-mastering on this one in Sebastopol, CA.

 

McGruder, you have the SDS and can dial in the correct speed of your TT. So, the SACD and the vinyl should be the same pitch. I would be interested in your observations.

 

REFFERENCE SAMPLES ARE UPLOADED.
Info about the reference files:
Download them here: http://sdrv.ms/P0LlMO (in the Reference Files folder).
I chose the Capitol Vaults release of Radiohead's KidA because it's obviously sourced directly from the CD... which is what we want in this case. I matched the timing for both the 'CD' and 'Vinyl' sourced files, and when you A/B them, they match PERFECTLY.

There are definitely no speed issues with my reference files, and thus my turntable is very VERY close to 100% speed accuracy!
(in fact, when I was playing Reference Track2 simultaneously, there wasn't even any phasing; these files are almost 100 identical!)

I think this will dispell any questions about the accuracy of my turntable being the culprit. Technics SL1200s are rock solid, and mine is no different.

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Does anyone think MOFI will listen to my concerns, or even give me the time of day? I am simply interested in knowing whether the SACD was pitch-corrected to be more accurate, or if the vinyl was slowed down in pitch to match the original pressings?

Thanks, everyone for all the support too!

 

You may be right here, but we need a few more people to chime in. I have the same analog setup McGruder has and would like to hear from him. If I had the vinyl I would give it a go.

To me, it makes no sense for MFSL to purposely have different speeds on the vinyl and SACD. Perhaps it has something to do with MOFI's equipment. Maybe, this is why they have recently made an overhaul of their equipment.

 

I digitally sped-up my recording from the vinyl, and I believe I found the magic number: +1.75%
When the vinyl is sped-up by 1.75%, it matches the SACD in pitch very, very closely to my ears.
I am surprised that I can hear differences in pitch down to less than 2%, but then again, that would mean the platter would have to spin at 33.91RPM to match the SACD -- and that's considerably out of range!

I've also uploaded my digitally corrected version of Long Black Veil, and you can compare with your own ears -- do you think this one matches more closely when A/Bing?

 

I have quite a few recent MOFI pressings AND digital copies, and love to A/B them to see how my analog rig compares to digital.

This issue with MFBP is the first time I have noticed a speed issue with any of MOFI's pressings (and is partly why I am so adamant about getting things figured out). But yes, I wouldn't be surprised that this is partly why they have overhauled their equipment.