Newbie tube amp question about heaphone jacks and Fisher integrated amps

I'm considering joining the world of people who listen to music through real speakers (as opposed to just headphones) and getting an integrated tube amp (and, down the road, speakers) to mate to my SONY SCD-C222ES SACD player. I'm considering a Fisher integrated, 500 or 800. If I get one without a headphone jack, is there some way I can still listen to the sound of the tube amp with headphones. Do these Fishers have RCA audio outs or just speaker outs? I know the 500-B and 800-B do not have headphone jacks, while the 500-C and 800-C do. If I get one without a headphone jack, is there some simple solution so that I could hook headphones up, or would I be out of luck?

 

Hmm.. I don't know squat about tube amps nor Fisher gear in particular BUT if I was faced with this situation in a generic fashion I'd say maybe a headphone amp fed off the Tape Out jacks (those DO have Tape Out jacks, right?) might do the trick.

 

Thanks. I don't know if they have tape out jacks. Maybe someone who owns a Fisher will chime in.

 

If you want to use headphones, the 500C and 800C are the way to go. In fact, the headphone outputs on these have gained quite a reputation as being very good (depending on the type of phones you use). Do some search's here in the AMPS FORUM.

http://www.head-fi.org/

With the 'B's, you would need to connect via tape out to a headphone amp. An extra piece of hardware, and extra set of ICs, and more money. IMHO not worth it.

 

Not to mention that it'd be introducing SS gear into an all-tube signal path, which would sort of defeat the original purpose.

 

There are tube headphone amps, but you will be hard-pressed to improve upon the Fisher headphone jack output.

Simpler is better.

 

But it's tough for me to say no to the AM tuner on the 800-B and the two separate tuning windows. I've read it's supposed to be better than the AM on the 800-C. Anybody know how true that is? My guess is the difference probably isn't that great and that the AM on the 800-C is real nice, too.

 

I'd pick the headphone jack over AM band pretty much any day unless you've got some really good AM stations around. WIth IBOC on its way, it seems to be creating a lot of hash on AM. To really benefit, a good AM antenna from CC Crane would make a big difference ove the built-in rod.

The AM section on the 800C is no slouch - Fisher charged a $70 premium in its day for the 'C" just because it had AM. That would be over $500 in today's money.

I once saw a post on AudioAsylum which said the AM was a little bit better on the B, but I doubt it would be so, so much better over the C. It is from the same heritage. Its only later that AM circuits were dumbed-down in hifi gear. Plus you get a great headphone jack with the C such that you don't need a headphone amp. Pick up a pair of Sennheiser 650s and woop-de-doo (or even better, use the second pair of speaker taps to hook up "the king" - the AKG K1000s).

 

Number 9, you almost have me convinced to go with the 800-C. It is a good compromise. I'm still hung up on the two tuning windows, 1 for AM and 1 for FM, and those way cool magic eye tuning beacons on the display of the 800-B.

 

Well its the sound that counts. Right?

With AM Radio (and of course FM) the antenna has a tremendous bearing on the results you get. If you are serious about AM Radio (I'm not, but know some people who are) then put some extra do-re-mi into getting a good AM antenna and hooking it up to the 800C. You won't feel you are missing much by not having the 800B. There is a good AM antenna discussion group on Yahoo, with plans on how you can build your own, works supposedly better and is considerably cheaper than what you can buy at Crane. You just need to hang it near a window.

I would also hazard to guess, because I've not looked too closely at the specs, that the FM section on the C version would be better than the B. The C came out around 1964 IIRC, where by then, Fisher really was pushing the envelope in tuner design in the highly competitive NYC market. The C's sensitivity is 1.8uV - very good, even by today's standards, and for a tube tuner, excellent selectivity. Whereas the B was circa 1961/2 - not near the peak. If not already, listening to a good FM station that is not compressed via the 800C (such as some of the NPR stations) will be a revelation compared to the expensive crapola tuners being sold today (e.g. Mugem Dynashaft).

 

No doubt about it. It is the sound that counts. I find the face layout of the 800-B more appealing, like I said with separate tuning windows, but the 800-C has it all in the sound department. So, that's what I'll set my sights on. Thanks again, Number 9, and welcome to the forums!

 

Hey, I like the looks of the 800B too.
There are some out there who think it was Fisher's best (then there are others who prefer the 400, while others the 500C).
I'd buy them all if I could.

 

I'm still trying to find a way to make the 800-B work for me. If I hooked up the 2 RCA Male plug to 1/4" stereo jack adapter (as pictured below) to the tape out on the 800-B, would I essentially have a headphone jack? If so, would I have volume control over the jack? Does the volume for the amp control the level of the tape out? Would the quality be significantly inferior to the built-in headphone jack on the 800-C?

 

No, no.

The amount of power you get from the tape-out is not sufficient to drive headphones. You would need a headphone amp. Sorry. Its not going to work.

 

Does that go for easy-to-drive headphones, too, like my Grado SR-60s? Thanks, Number 9.

 

I don't know your unit but that'd be really unusual.

 

Grado's are sensetive, and you may indeed get some sound, but it will be far less than ideal.

On the 500C and 800C, IIRC, the headphone jack comes off the power output, with a resistor in the circuit to lower the juice (to not blow up your headphones).

You also have to deal with impedance mismatches on the Tape Out - the Grado's are about 40 Ohms, some other cans go as high as 600 Ohms. A sensitive headhpone can get by on 100mw while others need almost as much as 1W to sound good. Tape output jacks were not designed for this, either in current production amps, nor back then.

If you indeed want to use headphones with the 800B and do justice to the tuner, preamp sections, a headphone amp is the way to go.

 

Ok. Is there any question that if I hooked up a headphone amp to the tape outs, I could get decent sound?

 

Absolutely.

There are LOTS of headamps out there, some can be had for cheap if you buy used.

Check out the marketplace section on head-fi.org

You can go $200 to a couple of grand.

 

Number 9... are you a regular over at Head-Fi? I searched for my amp, the Fisher KX100 and found a lot of useful information. Especially the stuff posted by mkmelt.

Thanks for the link!

 

Yup. I go by the same name.

I've been on Head-Fi since nearly the beginning, but don't post that much, before that Headwize.

mkmelt really has raised everyone's awareness of the Fisher 400.

 

Since we're talking Fisher here you can look at the Fisher 400X receiver.I've got one and I love it.I can't compare it to the 500 or 800 but the guy that modifies the 400 likes it better because of the shorter signal path. http://2baudio.com

 

Paul Grzybek is the man!!!

He realigned and upgraded my tuner. Highly recommended.

I've been eyeing that 400-X for a while. Though, the two speaker outputs on the 500 and 800s would work better for me because I can hook up my AKG K1000s on the second set.

Did you also switch over to EL34s? Hows that working out? Did you also bypass the tone controls?

 

Well, as much as I understand it is about the sound, I also care a lot about aesthetics. I decided to spring for an 800-B on ebay. Probably paid too much but maybe not, they sold for only $60 less when new in the 1960s. Don't really care. I'm sure it will sound nice and other than the faceplate and headphone jack, there isn't that much difference between the 800-B and 800-C sound wise, according to what I've read. The music should sound great, I'm going to be happy just looking at it, and if I want to use headphones, which I expect I will, I'll get a headphone amp. Forum member Craig of NOSvalves.com also recommended 2baudio.com for Fisher receiver restorations. Hopefully, the one I landed doesn't need much work, but if it does, I plan on contacting 2baudio. Thanks for your help, gents! Here she is:

 

It looks like its great condition. Congratulations.

Paul will do a great job I'm sure.

I'll be curious how the AM tuner turns out for you after all is said and done.