Wish You Were Here reissue mastering mysteries & problems

I debated making another thread for this album, but I have some things I'd like to discuss rather than "which is better" or opinions on the 5.1 mix. So with the advent of the WYWH SACD comes new discoveries (ironic) about this particular album and it's recent releases.

We have the following versions in 2011:

1. 16/44 Discovery Box/Experience/Immersion CD
2. 24/48 LPCM DVD-V
3. 24/96 BD
4. 16/44 SACD Redbook Layer
5. DSD SACD Layer

I have not heard #4 or 5, but among these are two distinct "masterings" that I can tell. A (1), and B (2, 3, and I suspect 4 and 5)

A and B are likely a different tape transfer. Their EQ is different and they do NOT sync from start to finish; one plays at a slightly different speed than the other.

There's one problem with mastering B—don't read this if you don't want it potentially ruined for you—the high frequencies in the left channel of Welcome to the Machine cut off sporadically and seemingly randomly. It's not too unlike tape dropout. This starts happening around the 3 minute mark until the end of the song. I listen on headphones so this was apparent to me, and is quite a bother, enough that I can't listen to it seriously or critically. None of the other tracks suffer from this problem from what I can tell, but it certainly makes me paranoid. The exact same 'dropouts' happen on both the BD and DVD rip so I'm pretty sure it isn't a bad disc / bad rip.

Though my question is why do there seem to be two transfers for the same release (when one should just be a high-res version of the other,) one of which is partly faulty? The DARK SIDE reissue does not follow this trend. It's CD and BD both have the same mastering (EQ comparison is a flat line.) And if they truly are two different transfers, is it possible one is not new? But which?

I really need to hear the SACD to comment on it but from what people have said and shown/posted, I suspect it may have the same problem I hear on the DVD/BD. If anyone could chime in on that, that would be great.

There's just something really fishy going on here...

 

Interesting. I haven't had a chance to listen to the Immersion discs yet. So you hear the dropouts on the DVD and Blu-Ray disc? I've listened to the CD from the Discovery box and have not heard any dropouts there. It's surprising that they would have used different PCM masters for the CD and the DVD and Blu-Ray discs.

It's been said in other threads here that the SACD and Immersion box are different masters. So I think we need a 'C' designation.

 

I also hear Welcome to the Machine dropouts on the DVD/BluRay stereo mix.

Can anyone confirm the SACD layer has the same?

 

I can now confirm this.

The SACD (DSD layer) contains the same mastering as the Blu-ray's 24/96 stereo track, including left channel dropouts. So the SACD's tonal balance (compared to the 2011 CD) follows the picture I posted here. So yes, people think the SACD sounds better because it's not as scooped. But there's no excusing the bad tape transfer, and why there are two different transfers released in 2011 is still unknown. After giving it some thought, my best guess is a new transfer was done (albeit not very well, or the tape is aging) for the hi-res releases and the redbook Discovery/Experience CD was pulled from a previous digital master. Or vice versa.

Discuss?

 

Vice versa. The SACD is the old transfer, in my opinion, and the new CD transfer similar to the other Discovery box ones - presumably analog to hi rez and downsampled during 'work'. The existence of the SACD transfer has been discussed here for years.

 

So, the SACD, DVD, and Blu-Ray use an older, flawed transfer, while the 2011 CD uses a newer, improved transfer? Why would EMI only use the new transfer for the CD?

(I'm stating "flawed" and "improved" with respect to the presence of absense of dropouts, not with respect to the mastering. For the record, I love the SACD, though I have not noticed the dropouts.)

 

This is most curious. Cost cutting? Surely not a significant amount, considering the scope of the reissue program ....

 

I agree that it doesn't make sense, considering the DARK SIDE Blu-Ray and CD from the Immersion set are the same master/transfer. Obviously the SACD differs from being released 8(?) years ago.

I've done some preliminary frequency charting (geez I sound like a tool) and it turns out the SACD is very close to the original vinyl in tonal balance. More-so than the 2 track 35DP-4 which surprised me. If you can't hear any problems with the transfer then by all means, it's the closest to a "holy grail" that I can see. But being a headphone listener with a sometimes problematic attention to detail I can't get over it. I might have to re-equalize the 2011 CD with the "anti-scoop" though because it is pretty good.

I'll put up a comparison picture of the most popular pressings in a few. I know foobar2000 was going to do another one like he did with DSOTM but you can never listen with your eyes too much

 

For those of you experiencing the high end dropouts, can you take note of WHERE (what time in the song) they occur? Unless it is a manufacturing or other problem, they should consistently happen in the same points. It will help others determine if the dropout occur in the format they are listening to.

EDIT: just re-read OP and noticed he said "sporadically and seemingly randomly". How is that even possible if it is the transfer?

 

I didn't mean random as they occur in different places every time I listen to it. They exist in the same places in all affected pressings (blu-ray, sacd, dvd-a)

Try here: Welcome to the Machine between 4m30s and 5m30s. At many points the left channel just seems to "pop out" from the background, out of nowhere. It's easier to hear when it "returns" than when it drops out, if that makes sense. More specific if you need, at 5:06 during "...to the Machiiiiiiiiiiine" you can hear the channel balance shift suddenly. It doesn't sound like a tape drop-out per se, but I can't determine what would cause it.

 

Here's a quick comparison. A little messy but it works



The vinyl line is jagged because, well, it's a vinyl rip, and a bit grainy at times. 0 dB line is average of all five.

 

Ugh, sorry but I couldn't edit my above post. Here's two with smoother lines as I removed the vinyl from the average, and included one without it entirely to see the others better.

 

Thanks for the investigative work.

 

I have a reasonable 5.1 Denon SACD player and decent amplifier and on "Welcome To The Machine" there is no evidence on my system of any tape dropout or such like between 4:30 and 5:30. I am not going to start isolating individual channels, but if it is actually happening, it is sooooo not a showstopper.
Its not going to spoil my enjoyment of this amazing SACD.
But thanks for pointing it out.

PS: The fact that it is random could suggest that you have a loose connection on one of your channels.

 

I can hear it on the Blu-ray stereo track exactly as described. Possibly it's due to wear on the master tape that was somehow corrected for the CD version only.

 

It's not random -- read my reply to the guy above. I meant that it's "not part of the music", not that it randomly happens each time I play it.

And I am referring to stereo only, not 5.1.

 

I concur, thanks for pointing this.

The SACD has dropouts which are not on my MasterSound gold CD.