'HD Download debacle' investigation published on HFN&RR June 2011

"High sample-rate music downloads are not all they seem, by Keith Howard"

Very interesting investigation touching points discussed on a few threads on this forum, summarized on this article published on the Internet:
HD download debacle!
by Mark Waldrep
http://www.itrax.com/Pages/ArticleDetails.php?aID=32

 

It's about time. I also experienced the problems mentioned in the article with some of Hi-Rez downloads offered by HDTracks & Linn. Not entirely a new issue however, since we have been duped waaay eariler by BMG/Universal/Warner with their 24/88, 24/96 & 24/192 DVD-As released in early 2000s that appear to be upsampled from lower resolution sources

 

Some quotes:
http://www.itrax.com/Community/entry.php?3-HD-Downloads-Debacle

 

Some people here are going to vehemently disagree with some of this.

 

So, major labels screw us. Minor labels screw us. Audiophile labels screw us (some anyway). And people wonder why music sales are declining? We can't trust buying vinyl given the no return policies at many locations + the possibility of it being a digital file (the same one for CDs) pressed to vinyl. CDs are brickwalled. MP3s are compressed to hell and the high end high res files can be a scam!

Classical music seems to be the last serious bastion for music lovers as well as low run Jazz remasters from our host et. al.

We don't even need to approach the obscene ticket prices for live performances etc.

 

Once word gets out that hi-res files can be / are a rip-off, will this mean the death of these?

 

I doubt it will mean the death outright, but it may mean that HD Tracks will have a heck of a time selling even if they can prove the files are high res. I would think that someone (perhaps Apple) will release real high res files and take the market. Or maybe (and far more likely) APO and Audio Fidelity will release some high res files, verified and backed up. Once that catches on, some of the initial burn of being swindled will pass and folks will feel comfortable again buying.

 

So hi-rez sample from analogue tapes can't capture more musical information than 44.1 kHz redbooks cds? That what this article seems to be saying. But they told me...

Every analog tape recording is standard definition (limited dynamic range and frequency response) thus transferring it to an HD bucket is pointless…unless the company juices the frequency response somehow. There are a couple of very informative graphs showing the "butterfly" effect of this sort of audio foolery.

 

This says it all.

 

Inexcusable...

 

The author of that article writes:

Nice of him to bring attention to shady practices by hdtracks.com... but his knowledge of audio is dodgy. Anything from analog "shouldn't be upsampled"?!? A 24/48 transfer is as good as the analog master to his ears? I don't think he's the best person to be writing about high resolution digital audio.

 

Something something Nyquist something something human upper limit is 20,000 hz something something.

 

It's quite obvious that the quotes from the original magazine investigation are technically accurate, not so much what the author of the blog wrote.
The original magazine investigation is backed up with technical data and graphics. Recommended reading.

 

oH, how this irks me.

 

I certainly do.

I should add that IMO just going from 16 bits to 24 bits makes a lot of difference, regardless of the overall frequency response of the source. Frequency response is generally limited by the source, but even my 7 1/2ips 1/4 track recordings have some energy over 22k. My 15ips studio tapes go up even higher, sometimes to 30k and beyond.

Lately we've been ripping many of my Hi-Res discs (SACD's, DVD-A's) and in many cases they seem to be virtually identical to the files offered by HD-Tracks. I'm fairly convinced that in many cases they are using these discs as sources for their downloads.

Some of these downloads sound better than others, but some of them sound beyond amazing when playing through the Transporter. Nothing anybody can say will change that.

 

Doug - I'm looking to make my first forays into HD downloads (for the Squeezebox Touch). I'm primarily interested in jazz, classic rock and classical. Give me 10 amazing downloads to start with.

 

I would like to add a little perspective for everybody here.

A 16bit/44.1kHz digital master (let's say it was made in the 80's, when that was the max. resolution available) will beneficiate from an upsample prior to a digital remastering.

I know Bob Katz for one agrees with me:

Of course there is no excuse if an existing 16/44.1 mastering is just upsampled without further improvements or if an analog master exists and is transfered to 16/44.1 and then sold as Hi-Res...

 

It seems that HD Tracks doesn’t perform the mastering, which is part of the problem. They sell whatever the label/artist submits to them.

I doubt the labels are using published discs, typically. But no doubt, some are probably using the same master as what was used before on hi-rez issues for SACD and/or DVD-A to avoid paying the costs of mastering them again.


HD Tracks and any other venue that wants to be successful at selling hi-def files are going to have to realize is that this market audience wants the care and oversight that a company like Audio Fidelity, DCC and MOFI provide.

 

Well this list will be subjective, and some of these are not yet available from HD-Tracks. I also haven't yet ripped all my hi-res discs as I have well over 100 of them, but...

Tom Petty - Damn The Torpedo's

The Who - Tommy

Stone Temple Pilots - Core (perhaps the best sounding one I've heard so far but not yet available from HD-Tracks)

Rolling Stones - (imo most of the HD-Tracks are very good, just like the SACD's, but some that are in 176k don't necessarily sound better than the 96k or 88k rips)

John Fogerty - Premonition - (this is live but sounds amazing to me, normally these revival recording are not my thing, but this sounds so good that it's an exception)

Jimmy Smith - The Cat

Buddy Rich - Best Band I Ever Had - (amazing in most ways but not yet available from HD-Tracks)

Ray Charles - Genius Loves Company

Yes - Fragile (from DVD-A)

Neil Young & Crazy Horse - Greendale (most of the NY HD stuff sounds amazing to me- very sparce, but fat, raw and delicate, though at times lyrically boring)

Antal Dorati & LSO- Stravinsky Firebird -

Erich Kunzel & CPO - 1812 Overture - (not the best recording of this, but the dynamics at the end are worth the price of admission to me)

Keep in mind that I'm listening to these through the Transporter so that tends to make most things sound pretty good, but these all have amazing impact in the bass, great image stability, plenty of air, and most of all three dimensionality like I've never heard from digital before. I particularly notice this in the ambience and reverb sounds, which IMO is one of the hardest things for digital to get right. Many of these sound like I'm listening to master tapes in the studio, and after tall that is the goal.

 

I would assume you guys would know who Mark Waldrep is.

He is the Founder, President and Chief Engineer of aix records and has been providing us with quality 96/24 DVDA 5.1 discs for quite a while. He is now selling a lot of those discs/tracks on his iTrax website as HD downloads.

Dr. Waldrep holds a Ph.D. in music from UCLA, an M.S. in computer science from CSUN, an M.F.A. in composition from Cal Arts, a M.A. in music from CSUN, a B.A. in 3-dimensional art and a B.M. in music from CSUN.

I have perhaps 9 or 10 of aixrecords DVDA/V discs and they are all stellar.

 

Businesses are built on reputations. I've yet to invest in playback medium of higher fidelity beyond Redbook CD.

When/if I do, I won't be looking to HDTracks as a source. I'll stick with audiophile labels with a deserved reputation and forums such as this one before plunking down any cash.

 

This kind of thing worries me...I can say that even on my modest system I hear noticeable improvement from HD recordings transferred from tape (Let it Bleed SACD, Last Waltz DVD-A, Sam Cooke on ABKCO, the Living Stereo SACDs), some of which are 48/24.

I think that it's a dangerous proposition to effectively dismiss the entire realm of Tape -> HD. That said, I haven't read the original article or seen their charts, but I know what my ears say.

 

This , all the way ..... it's sad , but they bite off their own hand .
You'd think they would realize a lof of "audio heads" are who buy hi-res & know how to check if it indeed is & a lot could probably tell by a listen (see Rush dvd-A thread)

 

My wife likes to remind me that I spend a disproportionate amount of my half of the disposable income on music. If only she knew I spend ALL of my disposable income on music

If someone like me, like those of us on these forums, desiring to spend money on new music, then there should be at least a modicum of expectation of quality. The music, now that we can sample/preview, means we can avoid getting burned on filler albums but we should also have the expectation of quality of the product overall, particularly if we are paying a premium for "better." I've purchased 4 albums from HD Tracks. Three were out of print, one - Raising Sand - I bought to compare with the vinyl and CD. To this day, I feel like I threw away money, if only because I don't have the same physical product I get to enjoy when buying a CD or LP. It was fine as an experiment, but I haven't looked again because I like physical copies. Now that the high res files are suspect it means I simply won't bother EVER. The iTrax site is a great one. Thanks for posting about it. I had no idea about this place and if in the future they carry something I can't source out elsewhere, it will be a great place to have a look and contemplate trying high res again.

I pre-ordered the Complete Beethoven by Brilliant Classics. If it comes in at the pre-order price, the average cost per disc is $.39. Meanwhile, "high res" downloads are $25+ for the album. Rather obscene given the alternatives... We are the target audience. We are seemingly all OCD about this stuff but at the very least we want what we was advertised: high res files. If I wanted the CD, I'd buy the CD.