1.85:1 vs 1.78:1

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by Bryan, Jan 13, 2011.

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  1. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Since recently getting my first HDTV (1.78:1 widescreen obviously) and blu-ray player, I've become much more aware of aspect ratio.

    I've noticed that a lot of films originally released as 1.85:1 (which is ever so slightly wider than 1.78:1) are shown as 1.78:1 on blu-ray. Sometimes the package will even say something like "1.85:1 (16x9)" for the aspect ratio, which is obviously false.

    So my question is, what is going on here when 1.85:1 films are 1.78:1 on my new TV? Slight cropping on the sides? Do they add a little bit more of the film than was originally shown in theaters on the top and bottom? I know it's a pretty minor difference so I'm not complaining, just more curious than anything.

    (And before you ask, yes I have my TV and BD player set to show the full, undistorted image.)
     
  2. I watch a lot of 1.85:1 Blu-ray movies and get slight black bars at the top and bottom. If you don't get that, check overscan on your display. I am not aware of any Blu-ray discs that do have the 1.85:1 image cropped to 1.78:1 but that doesn't mean there aren't any, it just must be very rare if it is being done.
     
  3. DragonQ

    DragonQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Moon
    Indeed, overscan will render the thin borders of 1.85:1 invisible on a 16:9 TV.

    Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if 1.85:1 was cropped to 16:9 occasionally, you're not exactly missing out on anything with such a slight picture crop.
     
  4. ziggysane

    ziggysane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin, TX
    I know that a number of Kubrick's films (inc. Full Metal Jacket) were slightly "opened up" to 16:9 for Blu without wrecking the composition. Avatar received a similar treatment with director and DP's blessing IIRC.

    Edit: I don't remember if either of those were 1:85:1 specifically.
     
  5. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    Correct, The Shining is also presented in 1.78:1 AR on BD & HD-DVD discs (theatrically it was shown in 1.85:1 AR).
     
  6. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    What is overscan and how do I find out if it's going on?
     
  7. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery picture member

    Overscan is when your TV is essentially "zoomed" in a little on all sides so as not to show extraneous bars, lines, etc. around the borders of the screen. TV manufacturers design TVs to oversacn a little bit, particularly in the old CRT days.

    With flat panels, there are usually settings inside the menu structure to set the degree of overscan. It's usually on a scale like: -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, with each one changing the "zoom" a little bit one way or the other.

    Harry
     
  8. DragonQ

    DragonQ Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Moon
    Hmm, I've never seen an overscan "scale", just a simple on/off option. But yeah, you'll find it in your TV's menu somewhere. Some TVs will remember your overscan preferences for each input separately.
     
  9. HGN2001

    HGN2001 Mystery picture member

    Our Sonys have the little scale options. A cheap Insignia we have does not.

    Harry
     
  10. SgtPepper1983

    SgtPepper1983 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    ...but don't they look just wonderful in 4:3?
     
  11. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Your set will not have an overscan "mode", rather overscan will be controlled by the Picture Size setting. As long as your set is 1080p, it will likely have an option called Dot-by-Dot or similar. If your Blu-ray player is outputting 1080p, you can use this setting to get exact 1:1 pixel mapping for Blu-rays and 1080i HDTV programming. Other TV picture modes called Full or Standard will have 2-5% overscan to crop out some of the picture "junk" that is introduced on the sides of some HD programming.
     
  12. apileocole

    apileocole Lush Life Gort

    Babbling on from Harry's point. CRTs were a miracle of technology but obviously very difficult to develop... in the early decades they had huge "overscan." That is, only a central portion of the available image would actually be visible on the usable screen area. In fact you'll note many early TVs were often almost circular. Over the years the amount shrunk to ~5-7% maybe and the size more properly squared at 1:33:1. But it remained an accepted given that a portion of the images on all sides wouldn't actually be visible to audiences. Sources including film transfers, live or otherwise may have had portions of the edges that show artifacts or aren't filled. VCRs can have bad edges, also expected to be hidden by overscan. Modern media can also offer you some shabby edges. Computer monitors however don't overscan, at least one wouldn't want edges missing. Anyway, there are reasons some HD flat panels allow adjustable overscan or "picture size." You can crop out a bad edge of a VCR tape for instance. Where the adjustments may be on any given set, I've no idea.
     
  13. Pinknik

    Pinknik Senior Member

    Oh no! I'm missing an extremely small amount of image!!! AAAAHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






    Yeah, yeah, I know.
     
  14. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    Indeed, Kubrick films (Full Metal Jacket,The Shining) do look great in 4:3 being shot with spherical lenses and matte-d to 1.85:1 AR theatrical prints.
     
  15. ferdinandhudson

    ferdinandhudson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Skåne
    I know Warner usually opens up their releases of films that were originally intended for 1.85:1 to 1.78:1.
     
  16. Claude

    Claude Senior Member

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    I know two Blu-ray reissues for which the picture has been stretched (not cropped or opened up): "Event Horizon" and "The Truman Show".

    http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/1821/trumanshow.html

    Screenshot comparisons:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1103757
     
  17. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Here are the picture size options in my TV's menu:

    16:9
    Zoom1 (grayed out)
    Zoom2 (grayed out)
    Wide Fit
    4:3
    Screen Fit

    I have it on "screen fit" because that's what ALL of the suggested calibrations for my TV say to use. Also, when I am viewing 16:9 content and switch back and forth between 16:9 and screen fit, I can see that 16:9 mode is cutting off a little bit of the picture on all sides. Screen fit seems to give the fullest picture and keep everything in its original aspect ratio. Within screen fit mode I can adjust the vertical and horizontal position of the image, but not the zoom. However, the on-screen description of the screen fit option does give me cause for concern:

    "Displays a full screen picture (black bars will be eliminated)."

    That doesn't make sense though, because I can clearly see that it shows more of the image than 16:9 mode.
     
  18. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Screen Fit is what displays 1:1 pixel mapping on your set. Ignore the manual reference to "black bars".

    16:9 picture mode will have 2-4% overscan and eliminate black bars from 1.85:1 Blu-rays.
     
  19. Claude

    Claude Senior Member

    Location:
    Luxembourg
    "Screen fit" should display the picture in the correct aspect ratio and without cutting anything off
     
  20. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Okay so that's what I've been using when I've watched 1.85:1 films on blu-ray that seem to fill my entire 1.78:1 screen. The two that I can name off the top of my head are the Godfather and Toy Story 3.
     
  21. dobyblue

    dobyblue Forum Resident

    That's not true for all sets. Panasonic Viera plasma's have "FULL" which is essentially the dot-by-dot from the Samsungs, but additionally have overscan which is either "1" or "2" representing 100% or 95% scan. FULL doesn't override the 95% scan option, you have to go to 100% to get 1:1 pixel mapping.
     
  22. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    Yeah, every manufacturer is a bit different. It often takes a test pattern Blu-ray to really understand the behavior.
     
  23. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    For what it's worth, I have the blu-rays for the BBC series "Life" and they have a little HDTV setup guide on them. One of the test images is a rectangular border for adjusting the picture size, and it fit perfectly in my screen with "screen fit" mode. So I'm pretty sure I am getting that 1:1 pixel mapping you guys mentioned.
     
  24. Bryan

    Bryan Starman Jr. Thread Starter

    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    This made me think of another question: why did they even come up with 1.78:1 as the new standard for TV sets and broadcasts? Why didn't they just use the existing 1.85:1 aspect ratio? It's only a tiny bit wider.
     
  25. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    1.78:1 HDTVs were created for the ATSC (HDTV) standard which is typically 1920x1080 or 720x1280 resolutions, both of which are 1.78:1.
     
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