Maybe vinyl isn't for me

I'm trying to get into vinyl but I'm having a very tough time.

I had a Sony PS-LX250H turntable and it sounded OK. I got a Technics SL-BD22 turntable, it had a bent spindle, I fixed it, and it sounded OK, even with upgraded cables. I upgraded my speakers to Magnepan SMGa's, and suddenly both turntables sounded like crap. I just got a new Audio-Technica AT92E cartridge, installed it to the Technics, and it sounds like slightly improved crap.

You see, ripped CDs upsampled to 24/88.2 via libsamplerate_best and sent to my Wavelength Proton USB DAC sound AMAZING. Plus there's the hassle that goes along with vinyl and the complication it adds to the signal chain. Without a turntable, I can hook my DAC straight to a power amp and avoid the preamp altogether. In that way, vinyl is actually degrading my digital sound.

How much am I going to have to drop on a turntable and cartridge to hear sound that compares to my ripped CDs? Has anyone spent time with an asynchronous Wavelength (or Ayre) DAC so they can tell me what it's going to take? I could drop $400 on the mighty Rega P1, but a lot of people have been perfectly happy with the SL-BD22 just like a lot of people are happy with the Rega. If I'm not happy with the P1, OBVIOUSLY it's because I need to get the P2, and so on.

Why am I doing this again? Warmth? Glossy grooves? Big art?

 

Well, I don't know if I should dive in here, but the table you use does make a difference. But, no cart/turntable will matter if you play crappy records. There must be something wrong with either your set-up, or your records.

I'm not familiar with your turntables, but they sound like very low-end ones to me, if i'm not mistaken.

I have modest gear, and I can still get vinyl playback that rivals CD playback.

 

You pretty much put your finger on it. The thread will go like this.

Is your table correctly set up?
Maybe you need a better cart.
Maybe you need a better phono stage.
Maybe you need a record cleaning machine.
Maybe you need a Technics SL-1200.
Maybe you need a Rega P1, P2, P3
Maybe you need to buy some new records.

My rule is, if it sounds better, it is better. The problem with lps is, if it doesn't sound better, you will get a dozen possibilities.

 

But have you heard a Wavelength DAC? My digital playback is STELLAR.

 

I'd recommend taking a couple of your records to a local hifi shop and doing some auditioning there. Heck, bring your turntable, too. Hook your turntable to one of the systems they have there, then try their turntable, see if the difference is what you're looking for. Most good hifi shops would be happy to help you out with this, and it will be fun!

 

Is there anything else new in the chain besides the Maggies?

Did you move the turntable/s from a previous location in the room?

If so, did you level them front to back/left to right and re-calibrate tracking and weight?

How would you describe the change in sound other than crap and slightly improved crap?

 

How exactly did you "fix" the bent spindle? Are you an expert machinist?

 

Actually pretty good advice. Bring your digital rig in for comparison's sake. If you find a table/cart/phono stage you like at a price you can afford that competes with your digital, buy it from them as the number of B & M audio specialty stores is dwindling.

IMO, you are discovering the reality of vinyl. Good sound is certainly possible, but it is not necessarily cheap or easy.

 

Does it compare to ripped CD playback through a really good DAC though? I always thought vinyl had something special, something extra, but I'm losing faith very quickly.

 

Please define what you mean by "stellar."

For example, I find that CD is "stellar" in terms of lower noise floor than LP, no clicks or pops compared to LP, tighter bass than LP, really easy to deal with compared to LP. That's about it.

However, I do NOT find CD "stellar" in terms of being closer to the sound of real music. CD sounds flatter, with less realistic timbres and inner detail, truncated decay, less realistic highs, etc., etc. (and I have spent a LOT of money over the years trying to optimize CD for my listening preferences). This is what matters most to me, not the sterility and "cleanliness" of CD.

If you are comparing LP to CD with the former criteria, then it will take a lot of $$ to get LP "stellar," and vinyl may indeed not be for you. If you use the latter criteria, it shouldn't take many $$ at all.

John K.

 

Can this account for total crap sound though? Maggies are very revealing, but maybe you already knew that.

It wasn't actually bent, but it was bent against its mount. I bent it back and super-glued it. I'm sure it's not laser-perfect, but I got into it so I spent hours on it and it's really good. But even if the previously bent spindle is degrading the sound a little bit, what I'm hearing is just pathetic compared to the digital output.

 

There is no doubt that vinyl is more labor intensive to nail down 'right' than CDs. Much as we love to battle over the 'better' media on this forum the fact is CDs are a great bang for the buck. Personally, the vinyl thing is worth it to me, but I've put some real time into it - much like an avid motorcyclist would their machine(s). I still love my CDs too for other reasons but there is nothing like getting things set up for analog listening. Only you will know your boundaries and needs.

I like the idea that you could bring your TT to a local hi-fi shop and see what its capable of. Even have a different set of eyes check it out. Another thing is see if there is anyone in your area or a TT friendly forum member that could 'mentor' you or help you get a solution going for your budget. Little things like setting up the TT and isolating it, a compatible phono stage, and so on could do wonders.

 

Easily, IMO.

Vinyl is a pain in the rear end. The reasons I'm big into vinyl are mostly that I already had a big vinyl collection when CD hit, and I didn't "replace" many of them with CDs because I didn't see the point. Since I've been into vinyl since the 70s I know a lot about how to select and set up a good used table. Also, I tend to be kind of a luddite, really enjoying older technology with all its warts just for its own sake. I have over 500 LaserDiscs also that occasionally get spun.

I've never had any stereo equipment than can be remotely considered "high end", I'm mid-fi all the way. Between the high-end stuff I've heard at friends houses and shops (I like Maggies BTW, but Theil is my favorite speaker brand - can't afford them though) and my experience in professional recording studios, I'm quite happy to enjoy and make the most of what I have.

 

Pardon my directness, but you seem very impatient to me. Some folks here were wisely recommending that you wait to buy a better table. You willingly compromised a better component to experience vinyl NOW. Lesson learned, I hope. I can assure you that there is much more to vinyl than what you've experienced thus far, so you shouldn't rush to any judgements or throw in the proverbial towel.

One fundamental thing about audio is that synergy means everything. You are buying so many things all at once without auditioning anything. Throw it all together, and it doesn't sound right, but you don't have any idea why - too many moving targets. I thought all bets were off when you decided to pair a new set of Maggies w/ a NAD receiver you'd never heard before. Combine that with a table that might have fallen off the back of the UPS truck which you decided to keep Just kidding, but you get the point.

Good question - why did you get into vinyl? Oh yeah, it was to enjoy listening to some LPs and find out why so many say it sounds better than digital. You say the digital sounds great with your amp and Maggies. I'm thinking the table, phono stage, cart or all of the above aren't up to the task. I say, first and foremost, return the banged up table and get your money back. Save enough money to get a Rega P2, Pro-ject Debut III (add the Speed Box for nice imp), or Technics 1200M5G. Find a decent phono stage for $250, and a budget cart and you will get off on vinyl. Check Audiogon for used equipment - great bang for the buck to get started. Listen to the nice sounding digital while you save your nickels, and research. Good Luck!!


I mean all of this in the best way. Patience, and spending more time trying to find synergy goes a long way towards good music.

 

But have you heard an asynchronous Wavelength or Ayre DAC?

Exactly. That is what has me discouraged. What I'm hearing has neither when compared to my DAC.

 

I can understand your frustration.

I had a cheap ($150?) Technics SL-BD20 that I got about 15 years ago to listen to LPs. I never was satisfied with the sound, there were distortions on the peaks, and a lot of the time many LPs just sound like bad FM radio. I decided to go the Vintage route, and found a Pioneer direct drive table from the 70's. It was just OK sounding. The speed wasn't stable, and I wasn't keen on investing a ton on a decent cart considering the problems the deck was having.

It took some patience, and some saving, but I upgraded to a Rega P3-24 with a Dynavector cart, power supply and PS Audio phono pre-amp. My dealer set up the table and aligned the cart to perfection. I am finally happy with the sound. It can sound extraordinary with the right vinyl.

So to answer your question, how much are you going to have to drop... I would say $1000-2000 in my experience. I realize some will read this and think I'm crazy because they found a way to get very good sound for less than half of that amount. That could be the case, but maybe they found some good deals, or know how to tweak things just so.

Why even spend $1000+ just to play records? I ask that myself. It all boiled down to the fact that many, many CDs out there just don't sound good due to mastering. Mostly this applies to CDs from the past 15 years, but many older ones as well. It's obvious that many music labels are putting the best effort for sound in the LP release, consider the Warner LP reissue program. Also, I have bought many mint $2-$4 LPs (that I would have not paid twice that for the CD) that sound absolutely fantastic.

In the end, a music lover could be perfectly satisfied with CDs. But they'd be missing out on some fantastic sounding music that can't be duplicated with the CD version, along with some very nice packaging to boot.

 

I'm sure the Proton does sound incredible. Gordon Rankin makes excellent stuff.

The reason your vinyl sound cannot compare is because you are using a f'*d up table with a $20 cartridge! Sorry about that but it's true.

I just read the other thread. You cannot fix a bearing by "bending it back". With the platter wobble that you commented on, you have play in your bearing and I really hope you didn't put WD40 on it. You should return the table.

Return the table, get a better cartridge (you'll have to spend more than $20), set it up properly, and then evaluate again.

 

I'm not even going to answer whether vinyl can compare. Only you can decide. It's perfectly okay just to stick with digital. I happen to like both.

But if you seriously want to give it a go, you'll have to start over.

 

That sounds about right. I have a ProJect 1.2 w. Grado cart, total invested $500 12 years ago. My integrated has a decent phono stage, $100 module 13 years ago. So I spent $600 and that is, IMO, not enough, but just adequate for my occasional spinning of vinyl. If I were to do it again, or if lps were my primary source, I would look to upgrade the table (P3 or better), phono stage, and cart.

 

If you like the sound of upsampled CD's, and you have no problem with the sound of CDs in general, then vinyl ain't for you. The difference is not in the dynamics, or deep slam, or extended highs, etc. Not in clarity, not in quiet backgrounds. Don't do it dude, it's a path to hell. My little $300 P1 is soon to turn into a $2700 P7.

 

McGruder's right, GG. You do come across as impatient....wanting megabuck sound for peanuts right now. It doesn't work that way, I'm afraid. My advice is to take it slow, build your system over time with meaningful investments up front, and waiting and saving if you have to, to get the performance you're looking for.

You received a LOT of advice from folks here on recommendations for a table that would introduce you to the world of vinyl in a meaningful and engaging way, and also quite a bit of advice NOT to buy the Technics, but you chose to dive in. With all due respect, caveat emptor.

The fact of the matter is you're going to need to spend around $800 to $1000 to get a decent entry level vinyl front-end, $400-$600 on a TT (e.g. a used Rega Planar 3 and a $350 to $500 cartridge). Once you go this route, you'll have performance that will exceed CD quality sound. The complexity of interactions associated with LPs means that a minimal level of expenditure is require to deal effectively with these interactions that tend to want to degrade the sound. With vinyl, the cost of entry is higher: but the performance you get with a $1000-$1200 TT setup will exceed most $3000-$5000 CD players. You're not going to get vinyl performance that will beat digital source spending a total of $400, including cartridge, on a TT.

In audio, ya gets what ya pays for, I'm sorry to say.

 

Nope. I do, however, have pretty good SACD playback, and with SACD I hear much of what I like about vinyl, but there is still a bit of digital to it for me.

I have recently gotten a Wadia i170 that I am using with an older PS Audio DAC, but I am tempted to try the Wavelength.

And it just goes to show you how listening preferences differ, because I have the opposite experience.

John K.

 

Buy a brand new Technics SL1200 series for $400 and throw a AT440ML on there for $99. If your vinyl is in good shape you should be good to go.

 

Therein my lie the OP's issue. The promises made by the vinyl crowd.

I'm sitting here listening to my find of the day... a "gold swirl" Simple Minds New Gold Dream found here in Atlanta at FantasyLand for a whopping $10. I used to own this on CD... don't recall it ever sounding this good, but that's me.

But to a younger generation... what is "exceeding cd sound"? There's a lot of muck to get past first. 1) pops and clicks, 2) surface noise, 3) bad vinyl that no matter what ain't going to sound good, 4) subtle mixing "back in the day"... now it's all compressed in in-your-face. I could imagine a clean mix might be a bit of a shock to someone...

And even then, the smoother more natural sound that lies beneath the surface may not be evident to those weened on the digital sound. Hell, it takes me 20 minutes or so after a week of dedicated CD listening. Imagine poor ears subjected to a lifetime of CD attack.

So "exceed cd sound" is a big promise that may need to unnatural expectations. It won't make you levitate off your chair, your head won't explode, and you won't swear off CDs forever.

 

A technics SL-BD22 or a Rega P1 isn't going to give you anywhere near the sound of the Ayre or the Wavelength DAC with high res ripped files.

Seriously, if you aren't ready to spend 3-5k on an analog front end (table, cartridge and phono pre) it isn't going to approach the sound of digital that you have now. If you don't have at least a fair amount of decent records in your collection, I wouldn't even bother with it.