Another Blue Note 'RVG remaster' tragedy - Jimmy Smith's 'Midnight Special'

Guys, stay away from this one.

So today I saw this RVG remaster title on sale, and figured - hey, why not?

Well, so I bring it back and pop it in the CD player and AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH. What is this I hear? It's not the laid-back Jimmy Smith album I know and love (I own a vinyl copy)! It sounds loud, 'hard' and very 'in your face', not at all like my vinyl copy, which has a bluesy, soulful feel to it. The cymbals positively 'splatter' now, and are right in the middle (not slightly offset to the right) and very LOUD.

I run back to the store, and am unable to find a McMaster issue. So I go to another store. And another. And another. (I had some spare time)

Finally I find a McMaster CD. I have attached waveforms of the 1st track, 'Midnight Special'. If I didn't tell you, I'd bet many here would never guess they were the same track.

This my friends, is why you should trust a waveform until your ears catch up in terms of experience. To not do so is to akin to saying 'I don't taste the saturated fat in this Oreo cookie, therefore there is none'. If you care about sound quality, you owe it to yourself to learn how to make and read these graphs.

It's pretty obvious that the RVG is VERY LOUD and VERY COMPRESSED compared to the McMaster. The EQ (not shown here) is also rammed up at from the 5kHz to the 11kHz mark in the RVG.

Not cool. Not cool at all. Michael Cuscuna should be ashamed of putting his name down as 'producer' of this series. I simply cannot believe this is the same guy who helms Mosaic Records.

So the moral of the story is - if you think your RVG is 'OK', or even 'good', chances are that... it's not. McMaster CDs are hardly 'holy grail' material, but next to the RVG remasters, they look positively sexy.

Down with RVG remasters! :thumbsdn::thumbsdn:

 

the rvg is compressed sure but not overly, I guess what it makes unlistenable is this treble festival in which he usually masters things.....

 

I was fortunate enough to pick up the McMaster of this title a few months ago.

When the RVGs came out about ten years ago, I bought as many as I could, often selling off the old McMasters in the process. Although the RVGs were more detailed, that was mostly due to treble boost and compression, which hasn't worn well over time.

Now I am selling off the RVGs as the McMasters turn up in used cd stores.

 

Thank you Gorts.

Let's try this again. I apologise for my earlier fractious post, which should have been accompanied by a smiley to temper the content. Here's 2 to make up.

Poor sound quality doesn't go away just because you don't hear it.

Unlike music quality, sound quality is easier to objectively quantify. Does it sound like the real thing? If not, then no, it's poor sounding. Subjectively (to me), the RVG sounds even less like the real thing than the McMaster. Objectively (as measured), it has a bump in the upper midrange, is nearly mono, and is compressed, which automatically invalidate it from sounding 'real'. Live unamplified music is not compressed, nor 'hard sounding', nor 'in your face' (unless, of course, you're on the bandstand).

One of the (IMO) great myths about opinions is that everyone's opinion is equally valid. I see this one get tossed out all the time here on this forum, some misguided attempt at egalitarianism I suppose (rights are not the same as opinions).

It's incorrect - not just IMO, but logically as well. Do you go to a doctor for advice on how to tune your car? Do you go to a mechanic to get advice for chest pain? Of course you do not - different people have opinions that matter more to you about various things than other people. There is a reason why XYZ mastering engineer is approached to do an audiophile mastering while ABC mastering engineer is skipped over - becaus XYZ's opinion on what sounds good matters more, is more 'correct'.

What I said in my 1st post was that if you think your RVG sounds OK or even good, chances are, it actually doesn't. And unless you have listened and compared it to an alternate mastering, you cannot mount any form of logical argument. Unless, of course, you are proposing that ignorance is bliss.

FWIW, this RVG 'treble festival' isn't restricted to this CD. The Concord RVG series is pretty much shot to hell (I've heard 20 titles of what, 25, 30?) and other Blue Note RVGs I own(ed) that compare poorly to McMasters include:

- Hank Mobley - Soul Station
- Horace Silver - The Cape Verdean Blues
- Jackie McLean - A Fickle Sonance (especially bad IMO)
- Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder
- Lee Morgan - Lee-Way
- Lee Morgan - Cornbread
- Lee Morgan - The Gigolo (especially bad IMO)
- Lee Morgan - The Rumproller
- Lee Morgan - Search For The New Land
- Sonny Clark - Cool Struttin'

Yes, I like Lee Morgan.

I've only heard (and kept) one decent RVG: Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle. The original CD issue had other problems though. The Grant Green RVGs are no better than the original issues IMO, and whether you prefer them is a matter of taste (they sound a bit more 'crisp').

The funny thing IMO is that RVG has always been doing this to some extent, even on his LPs. I suppose it's like salt - a little can make a meal flavourful, but too much and it becomes plain inedible.

 

Although I think I understand where you're coming from as far as these RVGs are concerned, your facts that I quoted above are weak at best.

The reason you go to a mechanic for a car tune up and not for chest pain is not because of the mechanic's opinion. It's because of his training and experience. A doctor might be a good mechanic and fix your car but unless a mechanic has been to medical school, chances are he's not going be doing your angiogram or bypass surgery.

Those treble boosts might not bother someone who has a hearing deficit or a crappy sound system that doesn't reproduce the music very accurately. For some systems they might sound ok. Maybe not compared to the McMaster, but for people who don't do critical listening the RVG might sound good enough for them. Hence, their opinion is valid for any of the above reasons.
If it sounds good to them, end of story. All the graphs and logic won't matter a bit if the person doesn't agree with you, which they have every right to do.

I appreciate the basic idea you are trying to communicate here about the sound quality of the RVGs but your language and attitude is not very helpfull.

 

This is "helpful information", but the way things come across isn't very savory and members haven't reacted in kind ways either.

Adhoc, please be aware that your audience shouldn't be the ones to be generally attacked in a thread, but merely informed and able to base their own opinions regardless of if and how they read yours. This is the way to win people's trust.

Thanks

 

AFAIK Cornbread does not exist as an RVG. This error renders your highly polemical post questionable - i.e., it makes it sound like you're out to rail against RVGs and haven't actually done the comparisons.

I have compared the RVG of Search For the New Land to the McMaster and prefer the RVG.

You are right about The Sidewinder and Soul Station, though.

 

I hate to thread cap, but in the physical realm of existance THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ABSOLUTE TRUTH. All truth is personal based on a multitude of various factors including experience as well as biological limitations. Therefore, everybody has a right to their own opinions in every situation. This disc has too much trebel is merely an opinion that may not be shared by everybody. As far as those waveforms go, they look decent, they are not brickwalled, merely slightly compressed.

 

I agree the McMaster editions are preferable as a rule. Micheal Cuscuna though is a great friend to all of us music lovers, and has earned great respect over many, many years. He does in fact appear to care about sound (and every aspect of quality) wherever possible, but his goal is to get the music out there and keep it out there. In doing so there are things that result in a lesser sound quality than we (or he) might prefer, but it's the music first. I also admire Ron McMaster, I think he has done good work in the contexts he is working within and apparently still does. If we made a list of all the projects they've done, it'd defy belief.

Like Bill Inglot, they may not always be able to do things as we (or they) might prefer but they're the good guys who care about the musical (and sonic) legacy they work with and have been making things happen to try and get the music to our ears.

 

Cornbread exists as a JRVG...

 

come on the rvgs ain't that bad! i've heard dozens of them and they are allright..

i'm not unhappy with the mcmasters either..i got the freddie redd shades of redd mcmaster and i like it..

 

Are they on a par with the Scorpio BN LPs?

 

Thank you. My notes indicate my copy was 'tocj 9197', and that it was a 'surprise' import issue, having ordered it in based solely on its title via Borders.

Maggie, the ad hominem attack was uncalled for, and is made even more odd by you actually agreeing with my assessment of 2 other CDs.

I guess at the end of the day there is something to the saying - different strokes for different folks. Oh well!

I'll leave it at this - folks, if you have a RVG you like, you owe it to yourself at the very least to listen to its McMaster counterpart. They are cheap and plentiful, and IMO will almost certainly be a surprise.

 

The RVG 's have some compression, but what bothers me most is the terrible EQ. This is what makes most of them very difficult to enjoy.

It is a shame that Rudy Van Gelder probably will end his career having mastered these atrocities.

 

the only direct comparison i've made is "song for my father" and the rvg sounds really bad compared to the mcmaster version.

what cracks me up is that ron mcmaster was excorciated for years on jazz forums for doing crappy sounding cds. now all of a sudden he's a hero. (I've never had any problem with his work as a whole).

 

good memory.

 

You call THAT an ad hominem attack? I took it as mere disagreement.

 

What are you doing on this thread? This is the 3rd post you've made on this thread that has nothing - not even tangentially - to do with the thread's subject matter.

And FWIW, is raising the possibility that I actually didn't listen to the RVGs I put up not attacking the poster (by calling into question his integrity), instead of pointing out the (perceived) factual error? He could have simply said 'are you sure?' or 'I don't recall a RVG title of that one'.

 

Your right the McMaster versions used to get ripped, But i feel people still have issues with
a majority of them .

 

I'm reading it, because Blue Note reissues are of interest to me. And what I've posted does indeed have something to do with posts within the thread. If they're off topic, it's only because what I'm responding to is off topic.

No.

She could have, but she didn't. Nothing to get upset about.

Now, how 'bout we get back to Midnight Special?

 

Wise words!

 

I have been mostly happy with the RVG remasters i have heard. However, I think I am going to have to shell out the big $$ and get the Hoffman SACD's though while they are around.

 

I'm surprised more folks aren't jumping on you for this ridiculous statement. I should trust waveforms over my own ears? I should chose your auditory preferences over my own? Does this work the other way too: I should trust the measurements of cables/wires/components (which often reveal no measurable differences at all) over what some people claim to hear when comparing gear? And what if someone likes/prefers the added compression - as RVG himself apparently does?

Listen, I don't care for many of the RVGs either, but I would never tell anyone who likes them that they are wrong for doing so or that their ears need to "catch up" to experience.

 

OK. Are you a mastering engineer?

 

let's face it, the RVG remasters are bright / really bright that's something it can be measured, another different thing is if you like bright music or not...I don't specially when it's played on a decent HIFI system at louder volumes....but I can understand some people like/ prefer/ don't mind bright music otherwise HMV or other music stores wouldn't have this bright and harsh sounding music on all the time........