Big Barrel Full of Monkees Thread

The most recent Monkees thread that got slightly off topic was locked, even though the information within was getting interesting. Power happy gorts.


I'm starting a Monkees thread where there is no topic other than the Monkees and everything related to the Monkees so there can't be any veering off topic.

I'd like to continue on with a series of quotes from the recently locked thread:

This isn't the first time Carol Kaye has been off. She's made some unusually incorrect comments regarding some of the sessions she did for the Beach Boys. Someone should give her access to the Musician's Union archives so she knows what she did & didn't play on. So, cutting two tunes for the Monkees I can understand where she might have gotten these mixed up with the other million sessions she participated in. She didn't even get to participate in any 'good' Monkee sessions!

 

Remember when Carol said that the Doors didn't play on the records? Fun times at the Doors message board.

Anyway, the Monkees are always in my personal top ten, sometimes top five depending on my mood. Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn and Jones Ltd. is probably my favorite album of 1967, and that is one of my favorite years for music.

 

I hadn't listened to the Monkees in a long while, until I brought the deluxe editions and Changes to work with me these past few days. I really enjoy Changes, I know a lot of people here don't (I also like "Student Demonstration Time" and the Billy Joel remasters, so there). I have even been enjoying Davy's songs much more now since I watched the DVD commentary, he seemed the most gracious of the four of them.
I need some Monkees on my iPod, they are definitely in my top ten.

 

I am a big fan of that album.

 

We just need to stay above board and the thread will remain open. Challenging the Gorts is not wise my friend. That being said, Carol Kaye is truly an amazing musician and a pioneer as a female session player. Her memory however is beyond faulty. Like Bernard Perdie she did so many sessions she can't recall them all. And like Perdie, she may have played on Mr. Tambourine Man, but it wasn't the Byrds version of the song. Perdie probably recorded Beatles tunes too (beyond Ain't She Sweet), or overdubbed drums on them, but not on Beatles recordings, probably soundalike stuff by the Swallows and Big Beat Sound. I'm afraid our new friend Jake has just as faulty a memory. It doesn't mean we can't enjoy his stories. Thing is, it's important that facts and stories don't clash too much. This leads to misinformation being bandied about and the rising of new urban legends. Ron

PS I listened to disc 2 of Headquarters Sessions last night, and it's damn good. Of course the Monkees weren't hugely talented musicians, but they play with a keen spirit and spontaneity. Micky struggles to maintain the beat, but he tries his best. One can sense he's frustrated by his inability to do better. Mike was very good on guitar, not a lead picker, but a strong rhythm guy and he came up with lots of cool riffs throughout these sessions. Peter really shines as a keyboard player. Chip Douglas wanted to restrain him some, but he could play piano really well. And poor Davy always slogged as the "tambourine player", but let me tell you, playing percussion on take after take is amazingly difficult. He had a nice sense of rhythm and his playing seemed to help Micky stay the course. I urge members to listen to this set, it really helps to better understand the situation they were in.

 

HQ sessions is a must for any true Monkees fan. The dialogue between Chip and the guys is almost as illuminating as the songs. I find it really strange how they keep calling Peter into the booth so much. To me it sounds like Chip and Hank were afraid Peter was going to bog down the sessions, and called him in occasionally to "right the ship". Anyone else had that feeling listening, too?

 

my faves: headquarters and pisces!
peace

 

Most definitely. As I said, it seemed like Chip wanted to restrain Peter, who probably was beyond hyper with all this new-found musical freedom. He went from being a nobody to wanting to run the show. You can hear this in his voice as he talks to Chip and the others. Chip was good for them though. He was more a contemporary and tried to be encouraging (even when a take was a disaster ) but firm. He seemed to except Michael as a peer, more so than Peter and Micky for sure. Of course Mike brought him into the fold too so that makes sense. I think Peter was given the freedom to come up with ideas and songs, but Chip knew folk material like Cripple Creek and West Virginia would not be appropriate for a Monkees album. But incorporating banjo, acoustic guitar and all manner of keybaords was a wise decision. Ron

 

Seconded. Let's keep this for the Monkees and nothing but the Monkees.

 

The thing I find interesting in Monkees discussions is that the debate on what they played and didn't play and whether they were a real group still rages. When I was 6 year old Monkee fan that had its place but is it still relevant whether anyone believes they were a real group or not? There's recorded output from an entity known as The Monkees. That's all we need to know. Right?

 

Since we have a brand new Monkees thread, I am going to shamelessly plug my Monkees site (linked in my sig). One day it will actually be complete even!

If anyone digs listening for mix variations and audible oddities, please drop me a line and help out!

 

I think it rages because misinformation is still out there. People still claim they were hired as actors and there was never any intention of them providing their own music. This wasn't so. And someone like Jake who has all sorts of cool, "I was there" stories, unfortunately adds to the urban legends that simply are not true. The facts are available to everyone. Sandoval's book doesn't sugarcoat anything. All session people are listed, there's no more guess work to be done. I hope we can just discuss the music and hope we get some new stuff in the future. Ron

 

I have an obscure question. On the Pisces etc. version of Words, I think it's right before the second chorus, Eddie Hoh hits one of the cymbals in a weird spot (right before the 4 in the last measure before the chorus). I absolutely LOVE that cymbal crash being there, but I always wondered if it was a mistake. There's a drum fill underneath, but I'm not enough of a drummer to know if he hits the cymbal on purpose or not.

Actually, here's a short clip with the section I'm referring to:

http://home.comcast.net/~wombat94/Music/Words.wav

 

Yeah, it doesn't "matter" who played or didn't play on this or that song, so to speak...but I am very grateful to have the session info that's now available to us (which I assume was primarily researched by Andrew Sandoval). I am really not interested in "debating" anything with anyone...always interested in learning more, though!

 

The HQ Sessions are the Monkees holy grail....!

 

Regarding the guys' 1969 tour with Sam & The Goodtimers, some of the various newspaper reviews included in Andrew's book call out Micky taking the occasional turn behind the drum kit. Does anyone have or seen any photos that bear this out? Would love to see more pics from that tour, period.

- Dan

http://www.myspace.com/thegilliganspop

 

It was always my understanding that Micky was only behind the kit for his solo spot during the 1969 tour...and otherwise up front center stage.

 

What's the deal with guitarist Sal Ditroia claiming that he played the famous guitar lick on "I'm A Believer"? In his book, Andrew Sandoval mentions the Monkees but he says that all of the other musicians are unknown. If there was proof that Sal Ditroia played on that track, wouldn't Andrew have included it in his book?

 

He's not listed in the liner notes for the Deluxe Edition of More Of the Monkees either. The only known personnel listed are Neil Diamond on acoustic and Buddy Salzman on drums. Both men are mentioned during pre and post-song chat with producer Jeff Barry. Somewhat surprisingly, Peter and Davy sing backup, something they had previously done only on Mike's production sessions. Originally Mike was tried out as lead vocalist for the song, but was kicked off the session after arguing with Barry. There's some cool pix in the liner notes of a very disgruntled looking Mike. Ron

 

He passed away recently so his website is now defunct, but here is a little blurb I found online:

More About Sal DiTroia

He's A Believer

Every time you hear "I'm a Believer" on the radio or watch The Godfather on television, Sal DiTroia collects a check. He's the studio musician who played guitar on The Monkees' peppy 1966 hit and worked on the score for the 1972 movie's foreboding wedding scene.

DiTroia performed on Billy Joel's first album, on Simon & Garfunkel's hits "The Boxer" and "Scarborough Fair," and on all of Dionne Warwick's hits, including "Alfie" and "Do You Know the Way To San Jose?"

He's worked with everyone from Grace Slick to Country Joe McDonald. He's even played tennis with Dustin Hoffman and watched Burt Bacharach and Hal David have a fight in the studio. "They invested in a movie that lost a lot of money," DiTroia says." Hal said, 'It's going to be a flop,' and it was."

Recording with Barbara Streisand --widely known to be difficult to work with..."was a memorable project," DiTroia says. But he respects her perfect pitch and ear for music. "She started out playing a Greenwich Village club for $75 a night, but if the piano was out of tune, she'd walk out," he says. "If the club owner claimed it had been fixed, she could tell if it hadn't," he says.

It was in New York that he met one of his heroes, electric guitar virtuoso Les Paul, whose advice DiTroia still recalls; "Don't get complicated. Always play for the public."

Nowadays, the native New Yorker, while continuing his session work, has taken a long overdue step and branched out into a solo performing career. He has released a new CD, called "Lost in the Music".

- From Tampa Bay Illustrated, 2005

 

Yea, I'm aware he said he played lead on the song, but apparently there's no documentation to verify this. Even Barry seemed unsure if he brought the Monkees a simple Neil Diamond demo or the finished backing track for the Monkees to preview. It was probably a simple demo because Mike told Barry it wasn't a hit. Perhaps to satiate Mike, Barry said it wasn't finished and needed strings and horns? A week later Mike was given the opportunity to sing lead but apparently still didn't like the song and squawked openly. Eventually Barry kicked him off the session (that must have been a sight) and Micky was given the chance to sing it. Ron

 

There is a note in Andrew's book to the effect that he only included material that could be proven with documentation, likely due to the fact that so many myths have sprung up around the Monkees over the years and he wanted to keep it to just the facts. I'm sure it wasn't a personal slight on Sal DiTroia (who I actually met once before I knew this was part of his legacy), just a unfortunate side effect of poor recordkeeping over the years.

Incidentally, on the subject of all these Monkee myths and facts, I recently started trying to put some influence on the Wikipedia entry on the group. When I stumbled in originally, it wasn't badly written, but I thought it needed to be split into two articles to reflect the television show separate from the music. The article has been revamped by others a bit since then, and I also started to clump some material together thematically for the split that I think will be happening. The current article is also a bit defensive, as if someone wanted to counter criticism that the Monkees were disposable. The Wikipedia standards require a more neutral approach, and I certainly think that can be achieved without downplaying any importance. Basically, facts speak for themselves. Anyway, I would certainly welcome the Monkee fans who frequent this board to take a look and either jump in to cite sources or correct mistakes or at least make some notes on the "talk page" on what could be improved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkees

 

If he got a check every time "I'm A Believer" was played, there must have been some sort of documentation!

 

Well, I'm inclined to believe that statement to be a bit of journalistic hyperbole on the part of whoever wrote that article. Partially because, as I understand it, people who receive multiple royalties get lump sums and not payments for specific works. I find it hard to believe that after all these years having musician credits on Rhino's Monkees releases that they would remove the Sal DiTroia credit without putting forth some effort to confirm it.