Wilco fans-What are your thought's on Jay Bennett?

[jjay]

As for Jay, don't overlook his solo albums - they have some very strong stuff on them. The Palace at 4am is a little spotty, but overall quite good,

I thought the Palace at 4am was great. loved it.

The Magnificent Defeat, is excellent (once you skipped the first couple tracks, which I found very weak.)

I thought the same thing, lose the first 2 songs and it was really good cd. I just jump to number 3 when I play the Magnificent Defeat.
Just my opinion,
Jim

[Alfie Noakes]

To me there are big differences between the "with Jay" and "without Jay" eras, and I enjoy both.
I will say thought that they were more of fun live show with Jay IMO (until recently anyway). They also seemed to take pleasure in wearing their influences on their sleeves while Jay was with them. If you ever get a chance to listen to the demos for YHF you can hear them easily jumping from all sorts of styles. I always assumed this was because of Jay as they don't seem to do that now.
However they do seem much more focused now and their last two records may be my favorites. They also seem to be enjoying themselves at their live shows now. I didn't get that feeling on the YHF or Ghost... tours, and that may have had to do more with Tweedy's migraine and addiction issues than anything else.
I think Bennett is extremely gifted. I enjoyed his first band Titanic Love Affair, however his solo records are mediocre at best IMO. A lot of great ideas in both his playing and production, but the songs are not there….
And I’ve been in bands with guys like that, and that type of personality wears thin after awhile.

[Alfie Noakes]

D'oh!
pbuzby beat me to the punch...

[Squealy]

It's Jeff Tweedy's band. Why should he record another member's songs just because they write? Stirratt can start his own band (and evidently has.)

Rock fans (and band members) are too enamoured with the idea that bands have to be democracies. Orchestras have conductors; jazz bands have leaders; choirs have directors. Rock is the only kind of music where people accuse band leaders of being egomaniacs or control freaks. The petty little jealousies sidemen have of songwriters has undermined a lot of great groups.

[Jose Jones]

Originally Posted by squealy

Rock fans (and band members) are too enamoured with the idea that bands have to be democracies. Orchestras have conductors; jazz bands have leaders....

Miles Davis had no problem letting his sidemen dominate the songwriting at various times. How many songs has Art Blakey written vs the various Messengers? Did Dave Brubeck write "Take Five"?

I understand the point you are making here, but jazz bands aren't a good example, unless you are only talking about leading the group vs composing the material.

[Larpy]

Originally Posted by squealy

It's Jeff Tweedy's band. Why should he record another member's songs just because they write? Stirratt can start his own band (and evidently has.)

Exactly my point. Before we go condemning Bennett for his outsized ego, let's not forget that Tweedy's ego is just as large, if not larger.

According to Greg Kot's book on Wilco (Learning How to Die), Tony Margherita and Tweedy got angry at Stirratt for releasing a side project record (Courtesy Move) because it "undermined" Wilco. Tweedy himself, of course, had already recorded with Golden Smog. That's the kind of Tweedy-centrism I had in mind when I expressed sympathy for Stirratt. And for the record, Stirratt is not as good a songwriter as Tweedy is. Very few people are.

Originally Posted by squealy

Rock fans (and band members) are too enamoured with the idea that bands have to be democracies.

Well, I certainly never suggested Wilco should be a democracy. My point is that Tweedy seems to treat the rest of the band as glorified session players. That's too bad, and I'd argue that it's led to the last two records being less interesting (IMO). As gifted a songwriter as Tweedy is, giving Bennett a greater hand in writing and production helped him make even better records. I don't think that's true of, say, Nels Cline. Wilco doesn't need to be a democratic collective, but I think it does benefit from having a wider "inner circle" than Tweedy alone. Summerteeth and YHF are evidence of that.

[moople72]

To me Jay Bennett simply is not as compelling a voice (songwriting-wise or vocally) as Jeff Tweedy is. Jay’s solo album that I have is very bland. It's too bad (if it's true) that Jay was not willing to be a side-man because that's where he excelled. He has to realize that while he has superior ability to Jeff, he is no where close to him artistically.
I think Summerteeth is their best album---I’m sure largely due to Jay’s sonic contributions. I do like Sky Blue Sky better than the two studio albums which preceded it (those albums were not weak but were somewhat overrated). I saw them live in 06 and it was amazing----far better than 2002 but not quite as special as 1999.

[Mike Dow]

Jay was certainly important and contributed much during his time with Wilco but it seems that he found himself in a creative power struggle with Jeff who won by default. The movie doesn't exactly portray Jay in the best light which is unfortunate as it documents such an important time for the band. There are two sides to every story and I wonder sometimes if the real story of what went down between Jeff and Jay is there.

That movie blew my mind when I first saw it. The director and crew unknowingly happened to pick the perfect time in the life of Wilco to do a documentary.

I like all of Wilco's phases but I really think that they have been operating at a peak level with the current lineup. I've listened to a ton of shows from the last few years and have yet to hear an "off night."

[Driver 8]

Originally Posted by Larpy

Musically, I think the band has paid a price for Bennett's absence, though I can certainly understand why firing him was a good move internally.

But Bennett had a real skill for coming up with guitar and keyboard parts that organically fit the songs. Compare the guitar and keyboard parts on Summerteeth and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot to those on Ghost and Sky Blue Sky: Nels Cline plays doodly jazz fusion solos that, to me, draw attention to themselves rather than to the songs.

I have to agree with this. Nels Cline is an extremely talented musician, but does flirt with dangerously prog wank-off solos that are as egotistical in their own way as anything stupid that Jay Bennett did or said in the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot documentary.

My take on Bennett is that he is the modern Brian Jones - a gifted multi-instrumentalist and embellisher of the songs written by the egomaniacal leader(s) of his band, but suffering from the fatal flaw of (1) wanting to be the leader of his band while simultaneously (2) lacking the ability to create songs on his own that are as good as the songs that he and the bandleader created together. Mick and Keith never could have realized their best psychedelic tracks such as "Ruby Tuesday" and "2,000 Light Years From Home" without Jones, and Wilco couldn't have realized their masterpieces Summerteeth and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot without Bennett. Ghost and Sky Blue Sky are very good records, but there is something magic about the previous two - and all available evidence points to that something having been the presence of Bennett.

[Cassius]

Originally Posted by Driver 8

I have to agree with this. Nels Cline is an extremely talented musician, but does flirt with dangerously prog wank-off solos that are as egotistical in their own way as anything stupid that Jay Bennett did or said in the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot documentary.

My take on Bennett is that he is the modern Brian Jones - a gifted multi-instrumentalist and embellisher of the songs written by the egomaniacal leader(s) of his band, but suffering from the fatal flaw of (1) wanting to be the leader of his band while simultaneously (2) lacking the ability to create songs on his own that are as good as the songs that he and the bandleader created together. Mick and Keith never could have realized their best psychedelic tracks such as "Ruby Tuesday" and "2,000 Light Years From Home" without Jones, and Wilco couldn't have realized their masterpieces Summerteeth and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot without Bennett. Ghost and Sky Blue Sky are very good records, but there is something magic about the previous two - and all available evidence points to that something having been the presence of Bennett.

I really dig the Brian Jones anaology, it works for me.

[Squealy]

My point is, there is somebody in charge who decides, "we are doing this song," "we are playing at this tempo" etc. It doesn't mean they allow no input from other people, but they have the final say. Miles Davis may have welcomed compositions from other band members, or he may not have, but it would have been up to him and no one would have called him a control freak if he'd chosen to play only his own compositions with his group.

[Jose Jones]

Originally Posted by squealy

Miles Davis may have welcomed compositions from other band members, or he may not have, but it would have been up to him and no one would have called him a control freak if he'd chosen to play only his own compositions with his group.

Actually, Miles is almost the opposite of a control freak, despite his reputation. He used to give almost no directions to his band, and trusted that his cream of the crop musicians could figure out what he wanted them to play on their own terms. But sure, he decided what they were going to play or not.

Of course, your average rock musician isn't in the same league as those guys, so the successful groups usually do have a definite leader. Wilco reached their arguably greatest creative peak perhaps due to the tension between Bennett and Tweedy. It often works that way. Look at the White Album.

I think guys like Tweedy feel more comfortable being in a "band" as opposed to just being billed as "Jeff Tweedy." It probably makes the other members feel more a part of it as well even if their input is limited.

[tspit74]

I'm not a big Wilco fan, but Jay Bennett (and the rest of Wilco minus Tweedy) backed up Steve Forbert on his 1996 cd, Rocking Horse Head. Forbert has a very Tweedy-ish voice.

[bangsezmax]

I have a buddy who played in a band that opened up for Wilco during the Being There tour. He had not followed what had happened with Wilco before or since, so he was simply an extemporaneous backstage observer. His impression was that Jay Bennett was an insufferable personality, a "real jerk who couldn't stop talking about himself."

I love YHF, but I love Sky Blue Sky just as much. Curiously, I have always been lukewarm on Summerteeth and had struggled to figure out why it never grabbed me properly until I listened to it again a few weeks ago, not long after my band had wrapped up production on our current recording project (so I had a fresh perspective to everything I was listening to). The problem with Summerteeth is that it's just too darned busy. Beautiful songs like "She's a Jar" are bogged down with production elements that simply detract more than they add. There doesn't seem to be much method to the madness (YHF is much more focused in comparison). To the extent that this was Bennett's doing (and I suspect it was to a large extent), I think he did that particular record a disservice.

And for all the noise about Wilco being a revolving door of musicians, I seriously think that the current lineup will be around for a while. Four years now (the longest stable lineup in Wilco's history) and there appear to be no personality issues.

[grbl]

Originally Posted by bangsezmax

I love YHF, but I love Sky Blue Sky just as much.

I feel the same way. Actually I love everything from Being There through Sky Blue Sky (I like A.M., but not as much).

Originally Posted by bangsezmax

And for all the noise about Wilco being a revolving door of musicians, I seriously think that the current lineup will be around for a while. Four years now (the longest stable lineup in Wilco's history) and there appear to be no personality issues.

I hope you're right. I think this is a great line-up, and a great live band.

[grbl]

There are some bands that operate as collectives with joint songwriting (REM, U2) and some that are dominated by one (Wilco, Porcupine Tree, The Who, the Kinks) or two (Stones, Beatles) creative leaders. Wilco is dominated by Jeff Tweedy, and IMO that has worked really well. Do the others have input? I'm sure they do, and many if not most of the songs have joint songwriting credit reflecting that. But, in the end it's Jeff's band, and he calls the shots.

[Squealy]

There doesn't seem to be much method to the madness (YHF is much more focused in comparison).

My understanding was it had to be taken out of Bennett's hands to get that degree of focus.

[Jose Jones]

Originally Posted by squealy

My understanding was it had to be taken out of Bennett's hands to get that degree of focus.

Too bad they didn't focus just a little bit more and edit out the unnecessary ear-splitting feedback endings for a couple of the songs. I'm glad that Sky Blue Sky is free of those noisefests.

[grbl]

Originally Posted by Jose Jones

Too bad they didn't focus just a little bit more and edit out the unnecessary ear-splitting feedback endings for a couple of the songs. I'm glad that Sky Blue Sky is free of those noisefests.

I'm not wild about some of the feedback endings either (especially on Ghost is Born). Not a problem on cd where I can just skip ahead, but on vinyl it's annoying.

[bangsezmax]

Originally Posted by grbl

I'm not wild about some of the feedback endings either (especially on Ghost is Born). Not a problem on cd where I can just skip ahead, but on vinyl it's annoying.

Note that Sky Blue Sky is the first Wilco record since Tweedy got his migraine and painkiller issues under control and the feedback-fests have gone away. This is not a coincidence.