Pink Floyd - The Wall, old Harvest Blackface vs Silverface cd comparison.

I did some comparisons of levels and waveforms of the following Pink Floyd - The Wall, old Harvest cds:

Blackface, Made in Japan, matrix (cd1/cd2): CDP 7 46036 2 1B7 / CDP 7 46037 2 8A4
Silverface, Made in UK, matrix (cd1/cd2): CDP 746036 2 . 3:1:19 EMI SWINDON / CDP 746037-2 . 3:6:17 EMI SWINDON

Peak levels:

Japan Blackface
Disc 1: 53.0% - 39.0% - 53.5% - 57.2% - 47.0% - 60.9% - 23.8% - 49.4% - 27.7% - 55.9% - 58.2% - 57.6% - 12.0%
Disc 2: 42.4% - 36.5% - 23.2% - 20.3% - 66.4% - 44.6% - 35.2% - 45.4% - 55.0% - 43.5% - 47.9% - 35.6% - 7.0%

UK Silverface
Disc 1: 100.0% - 78.1% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 94.1% - 100.0% - 47.7% - 98.8% - 55.5% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 100.0% - 24%
Disc 2: 62.7% - 53.9% - 34.4% - 30.1% - 98.2% - 66.0% - 50.9% - 65.6% - 79.5% - 62.8% - 69.2% - 51.5% - 10.2%

The Silverface is louder than the Blackface;

SF/BF (difference in dB)
Disc 1: 5.5 - 6.0 - 5.4 - 4.9 - 6.0 - 4.3 - 6.0 - 6.0 - 6.0 - 5.1 - 4.7 - 4.8 - 6.0
Disc 2: 3.4 - 3.4 - 3.4 - 3.4 - 3.4 - 3.4 - 3.2 - 3.2 - 3.2 - 3.2 - 3.2 - 3.2 - 3.3

Disc 1:

The level differences vary because there are some shaved peaks on the Silverface. Note that the difference is 6.0 dB on all tracks where the Silverface DOES NOT reach 100%, but less than 6.0 dB when it DOES reach 100%.

Btw, these few flat-tops are not audible (to me, at least).

Disc 2:

Here the Silverface never reaches 100%, and the overall level difference is less. Why it varies, I don't know.

The real interesting thing is that with the exception of the flat-tops, the Blackface and the Silverface cancel each other out, when level is compensated for and one is inverted.

So, barring the instances of peak-shaving, the UK Silverface = Japan Blackface.

Hm, I always thought the Blackface sounded a wee bit smoother, but maybe my preference is based mostly on sentiment? (Never did a blind test.)

Oh well, I'll stick by it, regardless...

 

Interesting. Thanks for posting this.

 

This is what I am hearing. The less-relaxed sound on the silverface is a result (in my opinion) of the maximizing that took place. The blackface sounds more open to me.

I think it also strongly depends on your system. Some systems seem to perform better on CD's with a lower volume (i.e. when the volume knob is more turned up), and others sound better at lower volume knob settings.

The WG blackface is in between. It has higher levels than the Japan blackface but never reaches 100%. This is actually my preferred mastering/CD pressing of this album.

 

Only in terms of the mastering of the glass master. They were pressed at different plants using completely different pressing equipment. And the pressing does make a difference in the sound.

Very interesting comparisons, though.

BTW, one of the more interesting theories that I have heard concerning why the early Jap pressings with the lower peak levels sound better than the later pressings with the higher peak levels is that the equipment you play them on has more to do with the sound when the peak levels are lower. In other words, lower peak levels mean that the sound relies more on the equipment than on the CD itself.

Just one of the many theories out there.

Vernon Fitch
www.PinkFloydArchives.com home of The Pink Floyd Discographies Page

 

Hi there, Vernon!

In my statement in post #1:

I meant the "=" to read as "is derived from the same original tape transfer/mastering." But then some level adjustment/peak limiting were done, resulting in a different glass master. I'm not very well versed in the process from initial mastering to production, but isn't this correct?

Thank you! (You too, Aceman and Roland!) I never thought this thread would get any responses; it sank like a stone right after a posted it. I wrote it up to "forum overfloyd".

Although not knowing the finer details in amplifier design either (dilettantism ), it sounds plausible that (at least many) amplifiers would perform better at "12-o'clock" than at "9-o'clock".

 

Possibly. It would be the same pre-mastering, as you indicated.

That's just one of apx. five different theories I hear being discussed about the early Japanese pressings. The peak level theory (at least that's what I call it!) basically says that the "better sound" is not due to the CD as such, but rather due to the equipment that reads the CD. With lower peak levels, the DACs function better(!), and the extra amplification allows the equipment add more harmonics to the signal. Keep in mind that I am not endorsing this theory. It is just one of many floating around. And has been discussed elsewhere, proper by-the-book mastering means keeping the peaks at 100%.

It certainly would be interesting to master the same CD with peak levels at 80% and at 100%, and then compare them after they have been pressed.

Vernon Fitch
www.PinkFloydArchives.com home of The Pink Floyd Discographies Page

 

Thanks for this comparison, very interesting chapter in "The DSOTM Saga"

-s1m0n-

 

I recall this being discussed and postulated in an earlier thread, but thanks for this anyway.

 

I thought the WG blackface is just an upward level shift of the Japan blackface Harvest but is the same mastering. Does anyone know? I have the Japan blackface but have never heard the WG blackface.

 

JPN blackface, WG blackface and UK silverface are all related masterings, i.e. based on the same analog to digital transfer.

The JPN blackface has levels up to around 50% (slightly over 50% on a couple of tracks). The WG blackface is louder (makes more use of the available headroom) but without any clipped peaks, i.e. without reaching 100%.

The UK silverface is more or less exactly 2.0x as loud as the JPN blackface which results in slightly clipped peaks (100%) of the tracks which are above 50% peak level on the JPN blackface.

The WG blackface is approx. 1.90-1.95x as loud as the JPN blackface without quite reaching 100%.

Hope this helps.

 

Thanks Roland.