Audiophile vinyl defects: When do you complain?

Maybe it's just me, but I can't seem to get a break with the new Warner titles I've been buying. Back when we learned that Steve was going to be working on all these great titles, I started getting excited about vinyl again. I'd been looking for an excuse to buy a new TT and got a Music Hall MMF-7. I've been hitting yard sales, thrift shops and having a lot of fun rebuying all the vinyl I gave away 15 years ago.

I got a copy of Joni Mitchell's "Blue" as soon as it came out.....and that's when the fun began. My first copy had a small but annoying (and VERY noticeable) scratch in the quietest cut of the album. Rhino very promptly replaced it for me with a very clean copy. I also ordered James Taylor's "Sweet Baby James" and ZZ Top's "Tres Hombres".

This morning, I finally got the chance to open the JT album and found these marks on the vinyl. It played "okay" but you COULD hear some noise when the needle passed through these flaws. Not a LOT of noise, but more than the random "tic" you'll usually get with a new pressing. Cleaning made no difference as it looks like a flaw in the vinyl.

I'm trying to maintain a good attitude about this stuff, but at what point do you start complaining? Should I just suck it up and take one for the audiophile team or should I b**ch and whine whenever I get a less than a perfect pressing? Maybe it's just me but I can't believe that the first two titles that I've bought (and opened) have had problems. I'm not looking forward to opening "Tres Hombres", either. It really pains me to dump on RTI, but this is 2 bad discs in a row and I want to buy more. What would you do?

Dave

 

I'd return it, get a new one, and hope for the best. I returned the recent Yes Fragile reissue because it came with an audible scratch at the beginning of side 1. If it had been side 2 I could have lived with it, but not during that beautiful solo guitar.

 

Back, pronto....great customer service

 

Yeah its annoying that I agree! My Dark Side of The Moon 30th Anniversary LP is quite noisy, but just acceptable. My Joni Blue is spot on though - with no spots on! AS for most of my Ryan Adams Reissues on Lost Highway I think they must have lost the vinyl ON the highway coz its warped, crackly and generally a BIG disappointment. Regarding taking stuff back - thats all good if its a local record shop - but with most people buying online (I'm in Oz and get most of my stuff from USA) it starts to become an expensive hassle to keep parceling stuff up to send back (Our postage in Oz is much higher to USA - than from USA to OZ) But thats another thread I guess!

 

Return to sender... The only way quality control will improve is if crap like this gets sent back. If you get another bad one, send it back. Keep sending them back until you get one your satisfied with.

 

In fact - to add to this - I just opened and listened to the Rhino "The Yes Album" that had got so much bad press. It had been sitting there unplayed coz I was too scared!!! Although it sounded better than I expected there was this really bad scraping/interference noise right in the middle of "Yours is No Disgrace" - I checked my old version and it wasn't there. So i dunno - give up or spend a fortune sending it back to NY

 

How are the folks at Acoustic Sounds with returns? My experience with "Dr. Rhino" at Rhino was VERY smooth and professional. I just wonder how many returns these guys are getting OR how many they will absorb before these retailers finally decide that vinyl is too much trouble to deal with. After all, we are a fairly picky bunch of music lovers. And where does a defect like this occur....at RTI or somewhere else?

 

There was a thread that also voiced some frustration with pressing issues a few weeks ago. I think this post helped . This is from Gort Sean :

"I have some INSIDE SCOOP.

Regarding RTI, those of us who have been there understand that making records is always an "iffy" process. The vinyl is heated, pressed, cooled and hopefully a quiet record is made. Each record is different due to heating, cooling times, etc. It's been the same way for 100 years.

According to our inside source, RTI is well aware of this ZZ TOP problem (and this thread) and is working hard to fix it. Nothing really changes in the process from one pressing run to another; the machines are AUTOMATED. What does change is the vinyl compound used. It's common knowledge that record manufacturing companies around the world are having problems with the vinyl suppliers and rapidly running out of some of the best stuff. Less than pristine vinyl pressed at 180 gram can have "issues" like noisy lead out grooves. I know that vinyl recipe changes have been made at RTI recently for the better. Hopefully the ZZ Top was the last to have the noise problem. The James Taylor Sweet Baby James has used a different batch and is quiet as a mouse. Record Tech really does try to press quiet, flat records. The presses are the same for all 180 gram records regardless of record company, etc. Remember, they are automated. All that differs is the heating/cooling process (steam and cold air pipes heating and cooling the vinyl) and the actual vinyl recipe. Just like we can't use Freon anymore in our air conditioners, vinyl makers cannot use certain "agents" in the vinyl recipe that keep it quiet. It's now against USA health standards. Companies like RTI are scrambling to make up new formulations that work to do the same thing. It's a constant changing process though. Blame the US EPA.


If they can't get good vinyl anymore there will be no more records, folks. I think they know that. If they have to go to third world countries to get the good stuff (that is now made no where else in the world), they will. We need our fix!"



I dont think, however , that it is being picky at all to expect a decently pressed record. A few ticks here and there I deal with fine and think most do. But there is a point where defects interfer with the musical enjoyment and take away from all the hard mastering work that went into these lps.

I expressed then and express again that I think a polite concern with this is the way to go and wrote RTI to express my concern. Not to be nasty and demanding but did it a friendly and understanding manner. I dont think its stepping on toes to do this. Or least they didnt seem to be insulted. Nice folks. Just be nice and express a concern . It might help.

Maybe the problem as Sean said above is being or is solved though.It can only help to possibly bring more to vinyl if it has.

Returns still end up costing the consumer shipping fees.

 

My first newly reissued vinyl purchase of significance will be the Bluenote reissues.

This thread makes me nervous. $50 a pop is real money for me. If I find myself returning more than a few of them I'm going to find that a serious hassle. I'd do it but the thrill of breaking the shrink wrap, plummeting to the disappointment that comes with the discovery of defects is something I'd get really frustrated and impatient with, quickly.

I hope this is a very rare occurance.

 

I don't care what it is...vinyl, car part. If I return something that's either deffective or the wrong item, I'm very clear with the merchant that I expect them to bear the cost of the return shipping.

 

I have to agree with Ctiger. My experiences are not good either with new heavy vinyl either, many noisy/scratched pressings. Ive been sending back my share. I only have one WB so far, which is the Stan Ricker Shangri La. No problems other than the noisy lead out groove, which Im OK with, but hoping will improve.

 

And do they? I mean with the vinyl transactions.

 

Here is the encouraging part in case it was missed in the above qoute :


"I know that vinyl recipe changes have been made at RTI recently for the better. Hopefully the ZZ Top was the last to have the noise problem. The James Taylor Sweet Baby James has used a different batch and is quiet as a mouse."

 

Hasn't come up yet.

I find that when dealing with any customer service department the best thing is to be polite, clear and assertive. I tell them what I want...not wait for them to tell me what they do. I also politely ask for a supervisor as soon as I can tell I'm asking an agent for something that exceeds that person's authority.

I usually say something like "I have a deffective item here and I'd like you to send me a UPS call tag for return shipment for replacement."

There are alternatives if they don't use UPS. Lots of ways to finesse it so that I'm only out the inconvience of repacking, a trip to UPS or the post office and the delay in having the merchandise.

If there's any way not to pay twice to have non-defective merchandise shipped to me, I'll find it.

 

Acoustic Sounds is excellent. In fact, in the very few returns I've had with them, they've always been eager to make things right.

 

This thread reminds me that I need to square up with Dr. Rhino. The Bee Gees boxed set of the first three albums is horrible in the quality deparment. The main problem is noise and other things I'll just live with but one of the albums in my set is badly warped. For the price I was very disappointed.

 

Sorry to hear that. I remember you being excited about getting this Let me know if it comes out ok for you Mark . I havent ordered mine yet.

 

In keeping with the original poster's question, I wonder how many defects (and subsequent returns) are purely visual instead of sonic?
In other words, you get a new record with a warp or some scuffs or a label slightly off center. Yes, it's a drag and you may even feel you've been had for 20 or 30 or more bucks. But if those warps, scuffs, or label problems cause absolutely no sonic issues at all, are they really defects worthy of return?
I only return records that have some issue which interferes with the music; and I've found it's a good idea to just listen to records rather than watch them.

 

I'm being a bit overly grumpy thinking about it but the set is worth it. You just have to check it very carefully which is kind of disappointing for something that costs $100+. The original question kind of sparked my grumpiness because I too had the question about when to complain. Since I don't buy a lot of new vinyl I just assumed that the norm is to expect some defects.

 

Scotto, I think that's part of my dilemma with this copy of "Sweet Baby James". It was a shock to see such a weird, gnarly looking defect in the surface of a virgin disc. I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't as nasty sounding as it looked. I was almost afraid to play it at first. Still, the flaw does make noise and after a few more playings, I'll see if it might "burnish" out....but should I be required to do this kind of self-fixing? Trust me, in the great scheme of things, this is WAY down the list. However, since losing my job earlier this year, I try to make every dollar count. That's what makes this such a big deal to me.

I opened "Tres Hombres" this morning (it's playing as I type this) and visually, it was a mixed bag. There always seem to be scuff marks from the disc being inserted into the sleeve and there's some weird mold mark in the surface too (nowhere NEAR as bad as the SBJ disc). So far, none of these "defects" have made any sonic impact at all. I guess if I was working on some assembly line shoving plastic discs into sleeves all day long, I wouldn't give a d**n about whether I scuff them up or not.

Johnny33, your comments re: RTI were very interesting, too. Thanks for the info. I really, REALLY want these guys to succeed with these Warner titles. Off-center labels and visual defects, while annoying, are not going to keep me from buying. But, like jstraw was talking about, the joy of opening up these beautiful albums is turning into bitter disappointment far too often.

dave

p.s. "Tres Hombres" just finished playing and those visual flaws didn't impact the sound at all.....and talk about some room-filling bass!

 

The Mofi 200gmrs used to give me fits,some were quiet others were horror shows!Quite frankly,the claim was that they needed to be played a few times and then the LPs would sound right.Guess what?Cleaned with distilled water AND Disc Doctor still didn't remove the issues!Those albums were not cheap and some of these albums sounded good and some didn't.

 

All very interesting info, that supports stuff in other threads on the forum that the vinyl compounds and lacquer formulas have been compromised. It may not be possible to make a good vinyl record anymore, in the US or anywhere else. That doesn't explain the scuffs and scratches though. I'm thinking that may be the automated machinery at these plants, or careless handling on the part of the workers.

Derek

 

I always play grade the vinyl when I received new and scratched LPs....my rule of thumb is if the damage on the record takes me out of the music then that is unacceptable, unless the vinyl is damaged as bad as your pic, then it goes back regardless. That is RTI at its best.....some say any QC issues with them have long been resolved.....from my most recent experiences I say it continues to be business as usual.

 

I brought the Sinatra 'September of My Years' reissue (Kevin Gray) just before Tower Records went out of business and it was a bad copy on side 2. I realised this after Tower closed. I always meant to see if I could get a replacement. This thread reminded me. Which company put this out? Anyone have contact info?

Todd

 

Years ago Rolling Stone did a big story about the hazards of PVC production. Back then I was worried it would be the end of vinyl. I have bought a few pieces of modern vinyl, but I find it problematic. It's not like records were perfect in the old days, but the modern product with all the 180gm hype is just frustrating. I admire all of you hopeful supporters of "audio-file" pressings, I just can't get excited.. and I hardly have the room for much of anything anymore...used buys are piling up everywhere!