Ella Fitzgerald "Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie", Stereo or mono? + Recording info..

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by johnny33, Jun 24, 2007.

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  1. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    usa
    Which is the best way to hear this album? mono or stereo?


    I have the 1989 cd version which sounds really nice but am looking to get this on lp. Have the Classic Records lp also. But am wanting to look at originals now.

    I believe Steve has mentioned the Ella Songbooks are best in mono because the early stereo ones are not good.

    Does this apply to this album also?
     
  2. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    No.

    Stereo.
     
  3. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Since this is a small group date, Steve, I'm kind of surprised to hear you say that. Is there any particular reason why you think the stereo mix is better?
     
  4. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Play it and see.

    Get the Dennis Drake cheapo Verve CD. Bunch of them around for a few bucks each and flat from Val's original mix.

    Hit the mono button and see what happens. All the nice leakage vanishes, etc.

    Trust Steve.
     
  5. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Well, sure, I'm sure the stereo CD sounds nice, but my mono LP has a nice natural in the room sound to it.

    Edit: I actually didn't seek this LP out, I got it in a bulk sale with two of the mono songbooks that I was looking for.
     
  6. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    I have an Ami original mono and stereo cut. On the mono the compression is double (probably right on to tape that way). The stereo mix from the 3 is lighter in that regard.

    Listen to "This Year's Crop..." On the stereo intro, the guitar amp is on the left but you can hear the actual strings on the right channel as they bleed into the drum mic. On a great system you can actually hear the back wall of the studio at RR. This for me recreates a real time and space that is uncanny. Love it.
     
  7. Another Side

    Another Side Senior Member

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Mmm... that's intriguing I'll have to check it out. :shh:

    Edit: I just played the mono "This Years Kisses", and you're right the guitar is compressed and distant.
     
  8. posieflump

    posieflump New Member

    Location:
    .
    Radio Recorders? Fascinating - being stereo, I assumed it had been done at Capitol.
     
  9. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Recording information for ELLA FITZGERALD:
    “Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie!”

    Verve ~ MG V6 4053 A&B: 61-VGS-538, 61-VGS-539

    SIDE ONE ~ 61-VGS-538 SIDE TWO ~ 61-VGS-539

    A Night In Tunisia 4:06 Cry Me A River 4:12
    You’re My Thrill 3:35 This Year’s Kisses 2:15
    My Reverie 3:16 Good Morning Heartache 4:19
    Stella By Starlight 3:16 (I Was) Born To Be Blue 2:41
    ‘Round Midnight 3:28 Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie! 2:41
    Jersey Bounce 3:30 Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most 6:13
    Signing Off 3:42 The Music Goes ‘Round And ‘Round 2:26

    Session recording order (not album order):

    June 22, 1961, double session:

    27022 take 2 Stella By Starlight
    27023 take 4 This Years’ Kisses
    27024 take 8 Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most
    27025 take 12 Jersey Bounce
    27026 take 4 You’re My Thrill
    27027 take 2 Good Morning Heartache

    June 23, 1961, double session:

    27028 take 6 (I Was) Born To Be Blue
    27029 take 1 ‘Round Midnight
    27030 take 6 My Reverie
    27031 take 3 Cry Me A River
    27032 take 4 Signing Off
    27033 take 5 Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie!
    27034 take 4 A Night In Tunisia
    27035 take 1 The Music Goes ‘Round And ‘Round

    Studio information:

    Recorded and mixed at Radio Recorders, 7000 Santa Monica Blvd., Hollywood 38, Calif. HO-3-3282

    Recording engineer: Val Valentin Recorders: Tom and Fern in Studio B

    Two-track reduction made 6/24/61 by Val Valentin in Studio 10-H

    Original stereo disc mastering: Ami Hadani 10/3/61 at: Ami Hadani Mastering Co., Inc., 6226 Yucca Street, Hollywood 28, Calif. HO-6-3381


    Original recording producer: Norman Grantz

    Musicians: Lou Levy-piano and leader; Herb Ellis-electric guitar; Joe Mondragon-bass; Stan Levey-drums and percussion

    LP release date: 10-11-61 by Verve Records, Inc., 451 North Canon Drive, Beverly Hills, Calif.
     
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  10. posieflump

    posieflump New Member

    Location:
    .
    Again - fascinating. Many thanks for posting those details, Steve. Of course, I'd completely forgotten that the album was recorded as late as 1961 - I get confused and always think it's from the late 1950s (hence the wrong Capitol assumption.)

    How can anybody not love this album? Great singer, a pretty strong repertoire, and a good band featuring one of the most underrated jazz bass players of all time.
     
  11. Burningfool

    Burningfool Just Stay Alive

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    On Steve's recommendation in another thread I bought the standard Verve CD a few months ago. It does sound great and it has become one of my favorite Ella albums.

    Chris
     
  12. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    I only wish you could have heard the unissued DCC Compact Classics 24 Karat Gold CD and 180 gram LP.

    Perfection in music and sound.

    One of my top 10 all-time favorite albums.

    I play CLAP HANDS every week and have since I discovered it in 1996 (Thanks, Elliot Midwood!)..
     
  13. Burningfool

    Burningfool Just Stay Alive

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Ah, Steve, what a tease.

    Just curious - when you listen to this album every week, do you listen to the stock Verve CD or your own mastering? I assume you kept a copy! :shh:

    Chris
     
  14. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    I rotate versions, original Ami Hadani RR LP cut, mono, stereo, MGM era stereo recut, Classic reissue Gold CD, Classic Reissue (Grundman cut) LP, old stock Verve CD, my unissued version on CD, Kevin Gray/SH cut acetate lacquer of DCC LP version, etc. The music always shines through..
     
  15. rpd

    rpd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Steve, re Ella, is is just the Verve stuff for the most part where you say mono is the best way to go?
     
  16. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Don't understand the question. Ella was on Verve from 1956 throughout the 1960's..
     
  17. rpd

    rpd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    Maybe a topic for a different thread...but...

    I am looking to start an Ella LP collection...mid 50's to mid sixties.... Looking at the Songbooks first, I guess...these should be mono based on my reading of your comments... The above mentioned record is better as stereo. If I don't know much at all about here records...is there a tried and true rule for her...re mono vs stereo? If I see a bunch of her LP's at a store, I want to know an easy way to know which to pick up...mono or stereo...
     
  18. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    usa
    Steve, you once mentioned that because the lp sides are so long it is difficult to get the dynamics, etc. correct. Do the originals suffer from this ? Or is really more of a matter of trying to find an original lp in decent shape?

    And how did you solve the problem with your 180 gm lp? Of course this might be asking too much info.

    How did they deal with that problem of lengthy sides back then? Same way as you do now?
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Back then for really long sides they would shave the top end and the bottom end off before cutting and compress.

    I don't collect Verve stuff from the 1950's on original LP; too low in volume and too funky sounding for me. They are fun to play and look at but that's about it for me.

    Problem is, the early Songbooks were recorded at Capitol and the mono versions are wonderful but the stereo mixes (done at Radio Recorders with tons of really bad sounding reverb) stink. So, you almost have to find clean copies of the original mono Songbook LP's. This is almost impossible because:

    1. The sides are so long that just one vintage scratch could take out 5 songs.

    2. When people bought these albums back in the 1950's they PLAYED them to death.
     
  20. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Mono for SONGBOOKS and anything recorded at Capitol from 1956-60. Stereo for anything recorded at Radio Recorders from 1958-66.

    Confused?
     
  21. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    usa
    Actually it sounds pretty simple . Yet impossible.I think I will just stick to my cd for now on the Clap Hands and Kevins work on the Songbooks.

    Such a great album though, Clap Hands. It seems like it needed to be a double album almost. Really rich and rewarding :).
     
  22. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    I don't think that many but they tried recording the album in NYC first and the results were rejected. They tried again in Los Angeles at Radio Recorders and BINGO! Some of those rejected songs appear on the regular issue silver Verve CD. I always skip 'em.
     
  23. rpd

    rpd Senior Member

    Location:
    Nashville
    So, for Clap, what is best way to go...early/original stereo LP, Classic LP or the drake CD???
     
  24. scottc1963

    scottc1963 Forum Resident

    Iwas just curious, I found a cpy of "Ella At The Opera House" , in mono and it sounds very up front, so to speak, to me. Has anyone heard the stereo? How does it conpair?
     
  25. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Location:
    California
    Sir Francis Drake. It's like 6 bucks and a flat stereo master transfer (solid state, should have been tube but what can ya do?)
     
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