Reel to Reel vs LP's

Hi,

I have a chance to buy a large quantity of factory recorded reel to reel tapes (Jazz). Reel-to-reel is the one format I have never tried. How does the sound compare to comparable LP's when played on a high quality reel-to-reel deck?

HG

 

These tapes are so old, they'll sound like they lost somethin' off the high end. That's how my few factory tapes sounded to me before I sold my deck and tapes a few years ago. On the other hand, the tapes didn't have ticks and pops of vinyl. I bet the tapes sounded great when they were new, like the 70's. I got R-R in the 70's but I never had a pre-recorded tape till the late 80's. Mine sounded slightly degraded by the time I got 'em.

I don't think tapes have been issued since the 70's....? Point is, all the tapes are aged.

 

Depends on the tape, the master, etc. Some of them were very good, some sound pretty vintagey....

I've been buying a few here and a few there and some have been very nice indeed!

Let me know if you got duplicates or anything you want to get rid of!

 

Two factors to consider:

7 1/2 ips > 3 3/4 ips
Retail tapes > Columbia House Tapes

 

Very true! Good point!

 

Not a real big fan of factory reels. For one thing, you won't find many duped in real time. If you're running the bin looper at 8x speed and your top end goes to 15 kHz, that means your duplication equipment has to go to 120 kHz. Not very likely. Plus if you're talking about "vintage" reels, they're going to be 30-40 years old. You're going to have all kinds of things going on with that old reel. Oxide shed, print through, flange distortion, all kinds of things. But that vinyl LP is going to sound like the day it was pressed. Plus there's that many more layers of electronics to go through. You won't find many consumer reel machines as quiet as a good phono preamp. I've heard LP's absolutely stomp the factory reel of the same title. Perhaps others have had different experiences with factory reels, but I tend to avoid them. If they're reeeeeeely cheap might be worth a shot, you can always re-sell them on ebay.

 

This isn't a question of formats. Reel to Reel is superior at anything above 7 1/2 ips speed and maybe at 7 1/2. Professionals use 15 ips or 30 ips.

What we are talking about, if I understand you rightly, are mass produced pre-recorded reel tapes. It's the same situation as cassettes. In order to duplicate them at multiple speed, which you must to make enough quantity fast enough, you seriously degrade the sound quality to something that will most likely be inferior to a well mastered LP on a good vinyl playback setup. In addition to this, the duplication requires duplicating from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, so you don't wear original tapes. These are the reasons the reel to reel is a professional recording/playback media and not a consumer product.

Obviously, 7 1/2 ips is far preferable to 3 3/4 ips speeds. There's also formats such as mono and stereo, 2 track and 4 track tapes (as in 2 track being stereo one direction, 4 track being like a cassette) and so on.

If not stored in good conditions, tapes can become brittle or deform with age, and/or lose oxide from the backing, or have other physical problems. Tapes do not lose their "high end" with age. To lose sound, they would have to have been partially erased by exposure to magnetic fields, which would affect the entire signal. Playback units can lose highs from wear of tape heads, magnetizing, or from other maintenance / wear related problems.

So don't expect them to beat a good LP played on a good setup and if you do collect them be wary of their condition due to the way they might have been stored and handled over the years.

 

most prerecorded tapes I own absolutley kill the lp / cd / sacd / what have you counterparts...

it all depends on the care that was taken in storing these tapes...etc...

 

I bought a 7 1/2 IPS Ampex reel of "The Searchers New LP" for $10 on a whim in 1998 or so. A late 1964 or early 1965 stereo recording, don't know exactly when the tape would have been manufactured. I didn't know what to expect, but what I heard was the best reproduction of that album ever. I was floored. Only Steve's remasters of some of the tracks from that album (for The Searchers Collection) sound as good.

At the same time I picked up the Searchers reel, I bought a 3 3/4 IPS reel of Donovan's "Open Road" LP. Stunk. Listened once and put it away.

Both of those reels were probably nearly 30 years old when I got them. The Searchers was used, and though the box was still in good shape, it looked like an old tape. The Donovan was still sealed and new. So I'm not so sure you can tell by looks (unless of course the tape itself shows the kind of damage people have already mentioned above). I think the main thing to look for is tape speed--look for 7 1/2 and the condition of the tape itself.

Dale

 

agreed -

you have to obviously use common sense when evaluating these tapes... all other things being equal however, man... they sound absolutley fantastic!

I have a bunch of Barclay-Crockers classical Dolby B reels that sound so damn good you think you have the actual masters...

 

Hi,

Reel-To-Reel pre-recorded tapes vary wildly in quality. Some are miles better than period LP pressings in nice shape. Some are sonic disasters. 7 1/2 IPS 2 track tapes were usually the best and were duplicated at no more than 4X duplication speed. Early 4-track tapes were duplicated at 4X playback speed too. If the record company made a good master tape available, they could be good if you have a nice copy free of defects from age, sloppy winds, and poor care. After about 1964, these tapes were mostly duplicated at 8X speed and the 3 3/4 IPS tapes became available more commonly. These tapes aged poorly although some of them could be OK. These were also more prone to dropouts from poor handling and poorly maintained equipment. The Columbia House pop and rock music tapes were horrible as a rule. They were 16X dupes on worn, poorly maintained equipment. Magtec, The Reel Society, and Barclay-Crocker made superb tapes late in the run.

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond.

Following is a summary of your replys to my question.....How does the sound of reel-to-reel tapes compare to LP's when played on a high quality deck?"

- "Depends on the tape, the master, etc. Some of them were very good, some sound pretty vintagey...".

- "You're going to have all kinds of things going on with that old reel. Oxide shed, print through, flange distortion, all kinds of things. But that vinyl LP is going to sound like the day it was pressed.

- "On the other hand, the tapes didn't have ticks and pops of vinyl."

- "...most prerecorded tapes I own absolutely kill the lp / cd / sacd / what have you counterparts...it all depends on the care that was taken in storing these tapes...etc..."

- "I bought a 7 1/2 IPS Ampex reel of "The Searchers New LP" for $10 on a whim in 1998 or so. A late 1964 or early 1965 stereo recording, ....I didn't know what to expect, but what I heard was the best reproduction of that album ever."

- "I think the main thing to look for is tape speed--look for 7 1/2 and the condition of the tape itself."

- "you have to obviously use common sense when evaluating these tapes... all other things being equal however, man... they sound absolutely fantastic! I have a bunch of Barclay-Crockers classical Dolby B reels that sound so damn good you think you have the actual masters..."

_ "Reel-To-Reel pre-recorded tapes vary wildly in quality. Some are miles better than period LP pressings in nice shape. Some are sonic disasters. 7 1/2 IPS 2 track tapes were usually the best and were duplicated at no more than 4X duplication speed.

HG

 

hehe... what a polite way of saying: you fools... can't you read my question?!

ok... for example:

- I have 11 Frank Sinatra tapes, some Capitol, some Reprise... all are in good shape - the sound on a Tim d.P. Technics is simply superb and way better then any original or reissue pressing of the same material on vinyl.

- the 40 or so Barclay-Crocker tapes are about EONS better then any CD/SACD counterpart that exists to date

- the rest of my collection, some 30 Columbia's, Mercury's & miscellaneous are hit and miss - in MOST cases, the tapes are superior to the LP issue/reissue.

does that help you more?

 

Not to hijack the thred, but the other thing to expect, especially if you're ever ebaying, is that the tape on the reel might have been recorded over or have sections of the beginning missing...I've had both happen. Imagine my surprise when my 7 1/2 ips reel of the Charade soudtrack played Ted Nugent at 3 3/4 ips!

 

What turntable/cartridge/preamp are you using? Just curious. I have no doubt that there are R2R tapes that better their counterparts on other mediums. I had a collection of tapes ranging from the late-60's through the 70's and they were terrible. But they were rock/pop titles. I'm getting the impression that older titles, especially jazz and classical, were of higher fidelity.

 

If you want to know how commercial reel-to-reel tapes sound, you can check these free downloads of high resolution transfers of classical recordings:

http://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=14

 

I have traded a few PM's with Hegeman's Ghost, and I thought I post my observations here.

I have owned Reel to Reel decks since 1970 and purchased prerecorded R2R's on and off over the last 10 years. About 3 years ago my interest in all things reel started up again. Since then I've collected about 250 prerecorded reels. First let me say, I'm not a Classical fan so that rather limits my R2R purchases and eliminates al lot of really great sounding reels.

The Golden age for R2R tapes are the 2 Track tapes 7 1/2 issued in the late fifties. My purchases of these tapes are rather limited and restricted to a couple of Jazz titles from Columbia. A few of these are the best recordings that you will ever hear in your home and will beat any format ever created.

Next up comes the dawn of 4 Track tapes, not to be confused with 4 Channel "Quad" tapes issued in the seventies. Now 4 Track, 7 1/2 tapes can sound very good indeed even equalling and in rare instances bettering their LP counterparts.

As the sixties progressed, record and tape clubs started to expand, we enter into the world of 3 3/4ips high speed 8x duplicated reels. Now there are problems. These tapes are great, for wrapping presents at Christmas, but don't expect much more that a better cassette in sound quality.

An unexpected twist occurs around 72/73 with the push to sell Quadraphonic to the public, some of the companies revert back to a quality R2R tape. Specifically, remember I'm talking mostly non classical here, WEA and several other labels begin issuing Stereo R2R's in 7 1/2 duplicated at slower speeds, even dolby encoded reels start to appear. Quality returns however it's lifespan is very short by 76 it's all over and only Columbia House continues to issue R2R's of popular music for the next few years and these are all at 3 3/4 using high speed duplicators.

I have watched the prices escalate on prerecorded R2R's over the last several years. Any tape of a popular artist that was not part of the Columbia House / RCA Record Club catalog of buy 1 and get 10 free circle, now sells for a $100 or better. I personally have sold many scarse R2R's of collectable Rock artists (Yes, Bowie etc) in excess of $200. Are these tapes really worth it? Not in my opinion. However a 2 Track tape such as Ellington's Jazz Party in Stereo is priceless IMO.

Just some thoughts......

 

I also have gotten back into Reel to Reel tapes recently and all I can say is it's "hit or miss" with the pre-recorded tapes.

If you are buying on ebay, make sure the seller posts a photo of the actual reel of tape, not just the box!

The condition of the tape is important. You want to make sure that the tape looks OK in the photo. Be careful of uneven tape wraps on the reel. Make sure the ends of the tape are straight NOT wrinkled and twisted, you may miss the first few seconds or minutes of the first song.
The tape should appear evenly packed on the reel. look for discoloration and or mold, another sign of a bad tape. The reel itself should not be warped at all!! if the seller has no photo than ask him these questions via an email.

I have purchased about a dozen or so tapes in the past month on ebay, 2 were bad (got my money back). I prefer 71/2 tapes over the 3 3/4. I never paid more than I thought they were worth. $10 -15 for most rock and pop from the '60's and '70's. $40 for a Hendrix "Axis Bold as Love" that sounds sweeet.

I have a few tapes that I bought in high school in the 1970's. One of which is The Who, "Who's Next", and it sounds fantastic. I stored my tapes "Tails Out". In a plastic bag in the box and the boxes were stored in a cool dark and DRY basement. Never near any MAGNETIC fields. All of my tapes sound as good or better than their Vinyl counter parts.

Good luck, it's a fun hobby. And if you know what to look for and more importantly, what not to look for, you should do well.
Have Fun!

 

I see this posted often. Why question is how does this benefit 4 Track tapes since they are recorded in both directions. For 2 Track tapes it is understandable because if "print thru" occurs than it would appear after the start of the music and the music would mask it. However on a 4 Track you are just eliminating it on side one but now causing it on side two.

 

Hi TommyTunes,

"Tails out" refers not so much to the orientation of the tape on the reel as it does to storing the tape after playback without rewinding it.

The reasoning is that wind speeds result in the tape being "wrapped" more tightly, thus promoting print-through. The less tight wrap of playback speed is safer for storage.

The term came about because with professionally recorded mono and stereo tapes, after playback the tape would in fact be oriented "tails out".

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks for that info, I have a question on my 2 Track deck I have a "Spool" button. This alllows tapes to be rewinded but at a slower speed that allows them to be evenly packed on the reels. Do professional decks have this capability?

 

Does anyone have more info on "the reel society?" I have a Lois Armstrong 7.5ips tape from the reel society. The cover is all black and it has a rather crudely printed label on the reel. Always wondered what the "Reel Society's" story was. Not much anywhere on the web. This is the first time I'd heard them mentioned. Tahnks.

 

Hi TommyTunes,

I haven't seen a "spool" button per se but some folks I know have used a vari-speed function when winding to slow it down. I still prefer to use the play function to get a tape off the machine.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Thanks Barry

 

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