Needledroppers-- Questions about tracking overmodulated 45s...

[lukpac]

Originally Posted by Grant

I've had no trouble with 60s styrene, just late 70s and early 80s.

I've had problems with A&M and Atlantic pressings from 67-69 or so. Well, those are what come to mind anyway.

[Grant]

Originally Posted by lukpac

I've had problems with A&M and Atlantic pressings from 67-69 or so. Well, those are what come to mind anyway.

Same here. Like I said, for me, it comes down to some by the CBS and Elektra labels. the earliest one I ruined was a near-mint copy of Kansas' "Carry On Wayward Son", and the last one I have was "Be Mine Tonight" by Grover Washington Jr. I went throught two copies of the latter, but was able to edit both together to get one good needledrop.

[Lord Hawthorne]

The worst singles for over-modulation and distortion in the 1960s were Mercury/Smash pressings.

[Arnold_Layne]

Originally Posted by Joel Cairo

I'd always heard that styrene pressings should only be played with a conical stylus, so I've never tried a microline on one... and from what you guys are describing, I think I'll stick with that advice!!

Then again, that's why I have the Dual TT/Shure back-up combo (and for use on 78s, of course).

-Kevin

Yes, I've ruined many styrene 45's with microline stylus such as the AT440 and the Dynavector 20XL. The best cart I've used on 45's was the last of the Shure V15V series carts. Wish I still had it.

A_L

[Grant]

Originally Posted by Lord Hawthorne

The worst singles for over-modulation and distortion in the 1960s were Mercury/Smash pressings.

Even the reissued 45s sound bad. But, it was the only place I could find the mono single mix of the Colony Six's "I Will Always Love You". I did the best I could to clean it up, and the AT 150MLX was the cart that saved it.

[william shears]

Originally Posted by Lord Hawthorne

The worst singles for over-modulation and distortion in the 1960s were Mercury/Smash pressings.

My experience too. I've tried in vain to get a good copy of 'I'll Never Learn' by the Shangri-las on Mercury. 5 copies down and everyone has distortion issues, even though they look very clean.

The Stantons are the way to go with 45s I think. They were US radio station standard carts. I use the 681/Pickering d11s and it plays any 45s clean as a whistle. For a while I was using a Clearaudio Aurum Beta S on my main TT but I never really liked it, I could never get it to track very well on LP inner tracks. But I put it it on an old NAD TT and have it just for 45s and it plays them like a dream. It's a big old diamond on the stylus that seems to fit 45 grooves very snugly

[JBStephens]

Originally Posted by Joel Cairo

I'd always heard that styrene pressings should only be played with a conical stylus, so I've never tried a microline on one... and from what you guys are describing, I think I'll stick with that advice!!

Then again, that's why I have the Dual TT/Shure back-up combo (and for use on 78s, of course).

-Kevin

The M-44 that you already have is a 0.7 mil conical stylus, which is ideal for most 45's. For mono 45's the best stylus is a 1.0 mil conical. The 78 RPM stylus is probably 2.5 mil conical, try playing a 45 with the 78 stylus.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Joel Cairo

I'd always heard that styrene pressings should only be played with a conical stylus, so I've never tried a microline on one... and from what you guys are describing, I think I'll stick with that advice!!

I've never had a problem with my Shure V15 VxMR stylus. Its original stylus finally seems to be showing some signs of deterioration, so I need to order a Jico for it (which thankfully came out not long ago). I hope their replacement is as kind to styrene.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Lord Hawthorne

The worst singles for over-modulation and distortion in the 1960s were Mercury/Smash pressings.

This guy (Spencer Morasch) seems to be able to track this fairly well, using some sort of Stanton with a Stereohedron :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqBk4uZtt4&fmt=18

[Joel Cairo]

Originally Posted by JBStephens

The 78 RPM stylus is probably 2.5 mil conical, try playing a 45 with the 78 stylus.

Y'know, I can't think of where I saw it (probably an old issue of "Goldmine"), but there was someone who wrote in and said that he'd actually tried that on an Elvis Sun 45 that he had, and it drastically improved the sound. As I recall, someone followed up on that statement, and said that it was possible that was true, due to the way those old Sun pressings were cut.

Any chance this is true...? What would there be about those old Sun pressings that would benefit from having a (relatively) huge 2.5 mil stylus going around the grooves?

-Kevin

[MMM]

I read that too. If true, they wouldn't be microgroove.

[apileocole]

Originally Posted by MMM

This guy (Spencer Morasch) seems to be able to track this fairly well, using some sort of Stanton with a Stereohedron :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuqBk4uZtt4&fmt=18

That would be what william shears & I are also attesting to. But if you can find a real Stanton/Pickering Stereohedron stylus reasonably (esp the DIIs both william shears & I have / had ) let us know...

[JBStephens]

Originally Posted by Joel Cairo

What would there be about those old Sun pressings that would benefit from having a (relatively) huge 2.5 mil stylus going around the grooves?

-Kevin

Grooves weren't V-shaped until they invented the stereo groove, until that time, they were closer to U-shaped. So all these "fancy" high-end styli like Shibatas and Microlines end up riding on the bottom of the groove, instead of against the side walls, and that's where a lot of distortion comes from. A "fat" stylus would get you up off the bottom of the groove on those old pressings, plus you'd be above the "wear line" created by previous playings. The tradeoff is that a big stylus would be riding closer to the surface, so it would be picking up more ticks and clicks and things. The key to working with vintage stuff is the right stylus for the right record, getting above the "grunge" yet staying below the surface damage.

[Joel Cairo]

Originally Posted by JBStephens

Grooves weren't V-shaped until they invented the stereo groove, until that time, they were closer to U-shaped. So all these "fancy" high-end styli like Shibatas and Microlines end up riding on the bottom of the groove, instead of against the side walls, and that's where a lot of distortion comes from. A "fat" stylus would get you up off the bottom of the groove on those old pressings, plus you'd be above the "wear line" created by previous playings. The tradeoff is that a big stylus would be riding closer to the surface, so it would be picking up more ticks and clicks and things. The key to working with vintage stuff is the right stylus for the right record, getting above the "grunge" yet staying below the surface damage.

And sure enough, here's a site that deals with some of this:

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/jlf/erepro2.htm

Hmm-- I think I may give this a try...

-Kevin