JADE WARRIOR - The scandal of the year...

[Eroc]

So what do we have here now? A forum with hundreds, maybe thousands of audiophiles and “specialists” connected?

And what do we have around us? A world filled up with millions of companies, sellers, technicians and music-lovers?

But am I really the only one complaining about the following…???

Folks – it’s a real scandal……

Yesterday I received a CD as source for remastering the album “Last Autumn’s Dreams” from JADE WARRIOR. This CD was released 1988 by Line Music as LICD 9.00563.

I have done two remasterings for JADE WARRIOR so far and several hundreds more from weird sources before. But this one beats them all by far.

This CD is completely phase-reverse. Look at the attached picture from one of my tools, it proves what I heard when listening only to the first few seconds. The whole music disappears nearly completely when switched to mono and sounds horrible “ear-pressing” when played in stereo. After correcting by putting the left channel into 180° phase-reverse I discovered more: all tracks suffer from a huge azimuth-failure, causing heavy loss of higher frequencies when switched to mono, proving also the repro head of the machine playing back the o-tape for this “mastering” was never checked and adjusted…

So each one involved in producing this CD must have been fallen into deepest winter-sleep or watching the worst porns back then while doing his job. And many so called audiophiles and music-lovers too, because - when I called up Uwe Tessnow today, boss and owner of Line-Music and a good friend of mine, he was really surprised about the news and told me, so far he hasn’t received any single complaint on this during the passed 20 years. And I myself didn’t find anything on the web or any threads in this forum, too, concerning this unbelievable thing. Is there really nobody around here owning this particular CD?

Uwe Tessnow told me the “mastering” was done back then at PolyGram Hannover (today called Emil Berliner Studios owned by Universal) definitely from the o-tapes. So who did it? Some trainee or the cleaning-lady? Or were the o-tapes recorded phase-reverse themselves? But then somebody must have heard it at once when putting them on…

I’ll be on my socks this weekend to get things done by whipping the best out of this source. As a musician I owe it to the band and as a technician I owe it to the music-lovers, even if they seem to have got no ears...

- Eroc


That's the result of a short part taken from a track from this CD:

[bhazen]

I've not heard the Line version, but that sounds criminal...

Eroc, have you heard the Background version of Last Autumn's Dream on CD (released in 2000)? Probably a better source, if the tape is not available; I don't know about the legalities/licensing, but...if you James Bond it...

As a big Jade Warrior fan, I wish you Godspeed on this mission!

Cheers,
Bruce

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by bhazen

Eroc, have you heard the Background version of this on CD (released in 2000, IIRC)? Probably a better source, if the tape is not available; I don't know about the legalities/licensing, but...

No Bruce - but I'll run for it rsp. let REP chase for it to get a comparison. On the other hand: phase-reverse sources are very easy to be corrected just by a switch (analog) or a few clicks (digital). Then I can get the 1:1 tape-sound out of even this CD.

Thanks for the advice...

- Eroc

[bhazen]

What about the azimuth problems?

[Dr. Merkwürdigli]

The problems with the Line cds is well known. Here is a couple of statements from the "The Friends of Jade Warrior Home Page".

"Anybody have a shotgun handy? I may finally get a chance to fulfill a long-standing wish. I want to take the LINE CDs of these albums out into a field somewhere, load them into a skeet-launcher, fire them into the air, and blow them into little fragments of plastic."

"The first three Jade Warrior albums are currently not available. The LPs have, of course, been out of print for a couple of decades and are collectors' items. The CDs released by LINE in the 1980s are likewise out of print, and many people have reported dissatisfaction with the sound quality on these CDs. As reported below, we learned some time ago that two of the three CDs were manufactured with their channels out of phase, and the frequency balance seems to be rather "off" as well."

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by bhazen

What about the azimuth problems?

Azimuth problems occur because of a slight time-shift from one channel to the other, causing interferance of the waveforms in the upper frequency range at first. This leads into loss of brilliance when switched to mono or an audible shift of the acoustic center in the stereo-base.

You can correct it with e.g. software like the one shown below. That tool measures the time-delay automatically, but also can be adjusted by hand. You see a delay-value between both stereo channels of -0.82 in the example (which is quite a lot and very audible), taken from the JADE WARRIOR CD after changing the left channel to 180°.

After treating the track with this tool with these particular settings the azimuth-problem is solved completely...

- Eroc

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by Dr. Merkwürdigli

The problems with the Line cds is well known. Here is a couple of statements from the "The Friends of Jade Warrior Home Page".

"Anybody have a shotgun handy? I may finally get a chance to fulfill a long-standing wish. I want to take the LINE CDs of these albums out into a field somewhere, load them into a skeet-launcher, fire them into the air, and blow them into little fragments of plastic."

"The first three Jade Warrior albums are currently not available. The LPs have, of course, been out of print for a couple of decades and are collectors' items. The CDs released by LINE in the 1980s are likewise out of print, and many people have reported dissatisfaction with the sound quality on these CDs. As reported below, we learned some time ago that two of the three CDs were manufactured with their channels out of phase, and the frequency balance seems to be rather "off" as well."

Great to hear this, Dr. Merkwürdigli...

I really couldn't imagine that nobody ever hasn't noticed that problem up to this day. So I'll do my very best to present the JW fan-community an overwhelming result.

Vennlig hilsen til Norge og har dett godt...

- Eroc

[yesstiles]

Eroc,


If you fix it, I'll buy it!

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by yesstiles

Eroc,


If you fix it, I'll buy it!

I'll get it fixed, you can bet...

- Eroc

[ChrisM]

I have the Background label issues of the first three (Vertigo) Jade Warrior albums. All three state in the liner notes that they have been remastered from the original master tapes by Dave Burrows. His name is not familar to me. I don't have copies of the original LPs in order to make a direct comparison, unfortunately. I just scanned through some passages of Released and did notice a bit of tape hiss in quiet passages. So, if noise reduction was employed, it wan't used to kill all of the hiss. The CDs are also not mastered at too loud a volume. They seem to be about equal in volume (or perhaps a bit softer) than the recent Island-era remasters done by Paschal Byrne for Eclectic Discs.

I do remember reading about the problems with JW CDs on the Line label. I must have seen that on the site mentioned by Dr. Merkwürdigli.

Cheers,
Chris

[bhazen]

Originally Posted by Eroc

Azimuth problems occur because of a slight time-shift from one channel to the other, causing interferance of the waveforms in the upper frequency range at first. This leads into loss of brilliance when switched to mono or an audible shift of the acoustic center in the stereo-base.

You can correct it with e.g. software like the one shown below. That tool measures the time-delay automatically, but also can be adjusted by hand. You see a delay-value between both stereo channels of -0.82 in the example (which is quite a lot and very audible), taken from the JADE WARRIOR CD after changing the left channel to 180°.

After treating the track with this tool with these particular settings the azimuth-problem is solved completely...

- Eroc

Wow.

I'm always amazed at the techonology available to engineers today; I must admit that, as an old no-longer-performing musician, this stuff surprises me.

Like all technology, it can be used for EVIL as well as GOOD; thankfully it's in your hands Eroc!

[Brother Shinola]

Originally Posted by Eroc

Uwe Tessnow told me the “mastering” was done back then at PolyGram Hannover (today called Emil Berliner Studios owned by Universal) definitely from the o-tapes.

Wouldn't it be wiser to just get the o-tapes and start over?

[Jeff Carney]

Line used to do some terrible needle drops, Eroc. They used some type of primitive noise filter which would gate in and out. Are you sure these were from tapes?

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by Brother Shinola

Wouldn't it be wiser to just get the o-tapes and start over?

That's surely the best solution. I'll call REP on this on monday. But there's one iron rule at Universal's: they NEVER let any o-tape get outside their archives. Maybe a 24-bit DAT-copy is feasable. Since my old friend Wim Makkee has quit there things are not getting easier for me, concerning high quality copies...

- Eroc

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by JeffMCarney

Line used to do some terrible needle drops, Eroc. They used some type of primitive noise filter which would gate in and out. Are you sure these were from tapes?

Thanks for this advice, Jeff -

As far as I could find out the source back then must have been a tape for this CD. It can't be a vinyl transfer because in some spots we have an azimuth failure of more than -3.28 (!) which definitely would have caused major problems during vinyl-cut. Also there are no vinyl-clicks rsp. any artefacts from removing such audible. But what I found out - they DID use their primitive noise filter on that, too, causing ugly gating effects. In the lower parts of the fades therefore the music begins to "fall into pieces".

And another weird thing: the CD carries a rather heavy DC-offset. In fact I can correct it, but it proves that it's a real cheap cheesy pressing. All in all I now have made up my mind to reject working from this source, even if I will loose the job because the boss of REP might pass it over to another masterer who just will do it for the money (like it happened before with a needle-drop from Roger McGuinn's Thunderbird I had rejected). Of course I need each single penny, as you know. But here's a "border" for my own esthetic feelings. I'll call REP on this on monday.

BTW: Thanks for your package which has arrived safe and sound. I'll get back to you on the private line later...

Cheers!

- Eroc

[Jeff Carney]

Originally Posted by Eroc

Thanks for this advice, Jeff -

As far as I could find out the source back then must have been a tape for this CD. It can't be a vinyl transfer because in some spots we have an azimuth failure of more than -3.28 (!) which definitely would have caused major problems during vinyl-cut. Also there are no vinyl-clicks rsp. any artefacts from removing such audible. But what I found out - they DID use their primitive noise filter on that, too, causing ugly gating effects. In the lower parts of the fades therefore the music begins to "fall into pieces".

And another weird thing: the CD carries a rather heavy DC-offset. In fact I can correct it, but it proves that it's a real cheap cheesy pressing. All in all I now have made up my mind to reject working from this source, even if I will loose the job because the boss of REP might pass it over to another masterer who just will do it for the money (like it happened before with a needle-drop from Roger McGuinn's Thunderbird I had rejected). Of course I need each single penny, as you know. But here's a "border" for my own esthetic feelings. I'll call REP on this on monday.

Well Eroc, you bring up a very important point which I feel is sometimes misunderstood here. Many modern remasters are butchered, but many old CD masterings were butchered, too. I think it is pathetic how many CDs were rushed out in the old days and as far as prog rock, quite a few were taken from vinyl or strangely EQd tapes.

I think it is important to keep in mind that older CDs are not always the answer, even if most of us agree that what is being done to music now is absurd. I have tons of great sounding older discs, but I have also come across many which are terrible. While this ratio may not be as bad as modern remasters, it still is reasonable for it to be considered and discussed if we are all trying to determine the best sources for various recordings that we care about.

As I discussed in a recent thread, I have heard a couple of older Line CDs recently that were some of the worst needle drops I have ever heard. Marsupilami's Arena, for example. How anyone could release this, I have no clue. Noise pumping in and out and all air sucked out with some type of noise gate or something.

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by JeffMCarney

I think it is important to keep in mind that older CDs are not always the answer, even if most of us agree that what is being done to music now is absurd. I have tons of great sounding older discs, but I have also come across many which are terrible. While this ratio may not be as bad as modern remasters, it still is reasonable for it to be considered and discussed if we are all trying to determine the best sources for various recordings that we care about.

Right Jeff - and let me add that also many of the praised vinyls aren't always "the" reference. I myself was e.g. really dissapointed by finding out that one of my all time favourite LPs from Steamhammer (the one containing Juniors Wailing) is suffering from a heavy azimuth failure. Such failures are a deadly sin for any honest engineer, because they prove that the machine playing back the o-tape for the cutting was NOT checked and adjusted. And those failures in common are NOT always noticed at once by the public, even not by many audiophiles (who in many cases at least don't have a mono-knob on their expensive gear).

Originally Posted by JeffMCarney

As I discussed in a recent thread, I have heard a couple of older Line CDs recently that were some of the worst needle drops I have ever heard. Marsupilami's Arena, for example. How anyone could release this, I have no clue. Noise pumping in and out and all air sucked out with some type of noise gate or something.

I know what you mean and that's one of the main reasons why so many audiophiles still hate ANY type of NR and maybe EQ'ing, too. But talking to Uwe Tessnow from Line Music about these problems, his opinion is quite clear: the industry back then had promised the customer the "new digital format" CD would be absolutely the best without any noise and hiss and flutter. So he as a salesman had to fulfill these promises and kicked the engineers to get rid of the noise by any means. He admitted that NR was done by cutting higher frequencies or even chase a production thru a Dolby A although the tape never was encoded with this system. Uwe made it quite clear: he wanted and had to sell CDs and therefore had to accept that the technology was still far away from the state we have today, when NR can be done very smoothly and nearly without hurting anything. He is a great guy and meanwhile very into classical stuff (I'm working on some Maria Callas albums right now for him), but on the other hand he is leading a record-company and therefore has to join the "laws of the market" which back then required thinks like beating noise down with an axe.

And last but not least: all these procedures may be acceptable because they TRIED to make it "better" somehow and spent some work on it. But azimuths and phase-reverse results prove that nobody gave a damn on anything, and that's the real scandal...

- Eroc

[grbl]

Originally Posted by Eroc

Thanks for this advice, Jeff -

As far as I could find out the source back then must have been a tape for this CD. It can't be a vinyl transfer because in some spots we have an azimuth failure of more than -3.28 (!) which definitely would have caused major problems during vinyl-cut. Also there are no vinyl-clicks rsp. any artefacts from removing such audible. But what I found out - they DID use their primitive noise filter on that, too, causing ugly gating effects. In the lower parts of the fades therefore the music begins to "fall into pieces".

And another weird thing: the CD carries a rather heavy DC-offset. In fact I can correct it, but it proves that it's a real cheap cheesy pressing. All in all I now have made up my mind to reject working from this source, even if I will loose the job because the boss of REP might pass it over to another masterer who just will do it for the money (like it happened before with a needle-drop from Roger McGuinn's Thunderbird I had rejected). Of course I need each single penny, as you know. But here's a "border" for my own esthetic feelings. I'll call REP on this on monday.

BTW: Thanks for your package which has arrived safe and sound. I'll get back to you on the private line later...

Cheers!

- Eroc

Eroc,

Just wondering how your conversation wih Rep went. Are they getting you a better source or are they going to pass the job on to another mastering engineer?

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by grbl

Eroc,

Just wondering how your conversation wih Rep went. Are they getting you a better source or are they going to pass the job on to another mastering engineer?

The last developments are that REP office London will contact The Jade Warrior musicians to ask for sources, maybe tapes or copies of tapes. The Line CD seems to be definitely out of the race...

- Eroc

[Eroc]

Originally Posted by grbl

Eroc,

Just wondering how your conversation wih Rep went. Are they getting you a better source or are they going to pass the job on to another mastering engineer?

Received a "burnt" CD from REP London today - seems to be a copy from the o-tapes with slightly misadjusted repro heads. Sounds billions of lightyears better than the LINE CD.

Will do my very best...


- Eroc