columbia stamper info needed

[barzzz]

I am going on a hunt for some 70s chicago vinyl, and was wondering if anyone can give me any info on columbia stampers for chicago 4-9. I checked the achives, and the only columbia lp stamper thread I found had no answers.

[Ryan]

Try for some with "TML" in the dead wax - The Mastering Lab. Really nice sound.

[barzzz]

I found chicago V with matrix 1ab, and 1af , with both sides stamped with tml, chicago VI, with both sides stamped 1a, and c2hd, chicago 11, s/t, stamped 1f, 1j, and both sides with tml, and chicago X, stamped 1g 2p, and chicago live carnnegie hall vol 3 and 4, with 1e, 1a,1a,1a, all with the letter p before the number. These columbia lps all sound better than the group portrait cd box I have, which is also quite good. This great sounding Chicago vinyl has helped me rediscover this great band.

[pope_ttb_xxx]

As long as the there's a mastering stamp and the matrix ends in "1"-something, it should be a first pressing. As always, the trick is finding ones that haven't been played to death.

I see a fair amount of Chicago in my thrift shop travels, so I imagine you will too (since they sold so well). Found a nice VI with the textured cover last week.

[W.B.]

Prior to TML (The Mastering Lab) assuming mastering duties for Chicago's LP's and 45's, that duty fell to Columbia's New York studios. The last Columbia-mastered 45 was "Feelin' Stronger Every Day" (4-45880, 1973). The first to be mastered by TML was "Just You 'N' Me" (4-45933, 1973).

[barzzz]

Originally Posted by W.B.

Prior to TML (The Mastering Lab) assuming mastering duties for Chicago's LP's and 45's, that duty fell to Columbia's New York studios. The last Columbia-mastered 45 was "Feelin' Stronger Every Day" (4-45880, 1973). The first to be mastered by TML was "Just You 'N' Me" (4-45933, 1973).

On my chicago 5, first presed in 1972, side 1 has in the dead wax pal-31102-1ab tml-s, and on side 2, pbl 31102-1af tml-m. I was assuming that the ia markings meant these were 1st pressings. If tml did not start doing these till 1973, does this mean they re-pressed older titles? Also, what numbers then would indicate first pressings of this title?

[RJL2424]

Originally Posted by barzzz

On my hicago 5, first presed in 1972, side 1 has in the dead wax pal-31102-1ab tml-s, and on side 2, pbl 31102-1af tml-m. I was assuming that the ia markings meant these were 1st pressings. If tml did not start doing these till 1973, does this mean they re-pressed older titles? Also, what numbers then would indicate first pressings of this title?

Actually, the number before the letter(s) indicates the mix or tape used in the mastering: If a matrix on Columbia issues ends in -1AE, the 1 indicates the first tape or mix used, while the AE indicates the lacquer cutting. Columbia used only the letters A-L, excluding I; thus, the -1AE side is the 16th cutting from the first tape mix or generation.

[pope_ttb_xxx]

Originally Posted by RJL2424

Actually, the number before the letter(s) indicates the mix or tape used in the mastering: If a matrix on Columbia issues ends in -1AE, the 1 indicates the first tape or mix used, while the AE indicates the lacquer cutting. Columbia used only the letters A-L, excluding I; thus, the -1AE side is the 16th cutting from the first tape mix or generation.

Thanks RJL, this is great information to have.

[barzzz]

So, would 1ab be the 12th cutting? Would 1a be the 1st? What would be the 2nd?

[W.B.]

Originally Posted by barzzz

So, would 1ab be the 12th cutting? Would 1a be the 1st? What would be the 2nd?

Why, -1B would be the second. Actually, extending on RJL2424's point, here's how the cutting structure viz Columbia worked:
- A - 1st cutting
- B - 2nd cutting
- C - 3rd cutting
- D - 4th cutting
- E - 5th cutting
- F - 6th cutting
- G - 7th cutting
- H - 8th cutting
- J - 9th cutting
- K - 10th cutting
- L - 11th cutting
Thus, -#AB would represent a 13th cutting. AA through AL would be cuttings 12-22, BA through BL would be 23-33, and so on. I once saw a lacquer on a deep-catalogue Columbia Masterworks LP as pressed in 1968, marked (I kid you not) -1ABC at the end. You do the math on how far they went with their cutting code structure.

But as this deals in Chicago, the very first pressings of Chicago V would most likely have been mastered by Columbia in New York. By then, all their Scullys were those in service after 1958, and they had two fixed lead-out pitches - 4 lpi (approx.) for LP's, 2 lpi (approx.) for 45's. That and their machine-stamped type they used for the matrix numbers on the dead wax. The only thing stamped on TML lacquers (all three of their lathes had the same lead-out pitch) was their name plus an -M, -S or -X, which was touched on in other threads on this Forum.

[barzzz]

Great info, thank you.

[Ryan]

I noticed on my Chicago II that only 1 of 4 sides had handwritten numbers, -1BE, and it's also the only one with TML ("TML-M") The other sides have machine-stamped numbers and no TML. Were they not cut by TML?

[W.B.]

Originally Posted by Ryan

I noticed on my Chicago II that only 1 of 4 sides had handwritten numbers, -1BE, and it's also the only one with TML ("TML-M") The other sides have machine-stamped numbers and no TML. Were they not cut by TML?

That's right. Must be a pressing from after late 1974 (and obviously red/orange "6-eye"). As I said, pre-1973 Chicago lacquers, up to the Chicago V album and "Feelin' Stronger Every Day" single, were mastered by Columbia in New York, machine-stamped numbers and all.

The other thing is this: At that point, TML lacquers had a 14.729167... lpi lead-in groove, while Columbia New York, up to 1973, had a 7.625 lpi lead-in (changed, on LP's, to 32.3125 lpi in '73). TML's band grooves (from one track to another) were 14.729167... lpi, as opposed to Columbia NY's 32.3125 lpi band groove.

[RJL2424]

Originally Posted by W.B.

I once saw a lacquer on a deep-catalogue Columbia Masterworks LP as pressed in 1968, marked (I kid you not) -1ABC at the end. You do the math on how far they went with their cutting code structure.

Why, yes. Columbia typically wore out the master tapes. That -1ABC cutting is the 146th cutting of that side from the same tape!

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by W.B.

That's right. Must be a pressing from after late 1974 (and obviously red/orange "6-eye"). As I said, pre-1973 Chicago lacquers, up to the Chicago V album and "Feelin' Stronger Every Day" single, were mastered by Columbia in New York, machine-stamped numbers and all.

The other thing is this: At that point, TML lacquers had a 14.729167... lpi lead-in groove, while Columbia New York, up to 1973, had a 7.625 lpi lead-in (changed, on LP's, to 32.3125 lpi in '73). TML's band grooves (from one track to another) were 14.729167... lpi, as opposed to Columbia NY's 32.3125 lpi band groove.

thanks and yes, it's a orange eye label.

[pope_ttb_xxx]

Going through my Columbia LPs last night, I saw a "For Demonstration Not For Sale" stamp on my Blonde on Blonde. Quickly slid out the disks -- they're stamped "4D".

Guess that probably doesn't mean "For Demonstration"