Louis Armstrong - Hot Fives and Sevens - the Best one?

Thanks, guys! This'll be on my store's next order.

 

Just in case, for whatever reason, you were looking for the OOP JSP issues of the Hot Fives & Sevens, the Catalog Numbers for the first editions of the John R. T. Davies single disc issues are:

JSP CD 312 ARMSTRONG, Louis Hot Fives & Sevens Volume 1 John R. T. Davies
JSP CD 313 ARMSTRONG, Louis Hot Fives & Sevens Volume 2 John R. T. Davies
JSP CD 314 ARMSTRONG, Louis Hot Fives & Sevens Volume 3 John R. T. Davies
JSP CD 315 ARMSTRONG, Louis Hot Fives & Sevens Volume 4 John R. T. Davies

Thanks to RZangpo2.

 

I recently bought the Columbia/Sony Legacy Fletcher Henderson set, "A Study in Frustration." HORRIFYING!! I compared it to the J. R. T. Davies's "Complete Louis Armstrong with Fletcher Henderson" and it was NIGHT and DAY. Nothing subtle about the differences. In fact, I was so horrified I wrote this review at Amazon....this version's slightly updated.

Disgraceful mastering of incredible music., January 6, 2005
Reviewer: Stephen Espinola "obsessive music" (Brooklyn NY)

The other reviewers' comments about Fletcher Henderson's music are generally accurate, and I will let those speak for themselves.

This SHOULD be a definitive collection of Fletcher Henderson's music. It is intelligently selected, programmed, and annotated, as was the original issue of this set, in 1961, when it was a box of 4 LPs on the Columbia label. I have that set.

Unfortunately, This 3 CD version suffers from the same EXACT problem as that set and a later (1970's) 2-LP Smithsonian collection based on that set. The mastering on the 1961 version was inexusably bad, possibly the worst I have ever heard on a compilation of recordings of 78's, and amazingly, this set uses the same exact tapes as the original, in spite of the existence of far better source discs.

Especially on the material from 1924 through 1927 (but beyond as well), the original engineer apparently took it upon himself to remove the clicks in the 78's by making small cuts in the tape, which makes things much worse. (alternately, I suppose the transfer tapes may have been damaged and simply spliced to piece them back together....unlikely given some of the editing choices.)

The result is that band appears to momentarily lose their sense of rhythm, uncannily, in perfect sync. This may account for the descriptions, over the years, of the band lacking a "sense of swing" in the early years. These transfers have been, for the last 44 years, the most accessable and listened-to recordings of the early orchestra. In addition, some pretty lousy EQ'ing was done on many of these recordings, making them sound much tinnier than necessary.

For comparison, listen to a 3-CD collection called "The Complete Louis Armstrong with Fletcher Henderson" on the Canadian Forte Records label, mastered, masterfully, by John R.T. Davies. Compare take 4 of "Alabamy Bound" on that collection (disc 2, #22) with the same exact performance of "Alabamy Bound" on this set (disc 1 #8). The Forte transfer is has a full frequency range (given that it is a 1925 acoustic recording) and no edits. The Columbia transfer sounds like an old telephone, and is missing several complete beats from :32 through about :55 in the recording. I count over 16 crucial tracks on the CD with this same editing problem to varying degrees.

I'm a sensitive guy, but everytime I hear the rhythm skip on this set I feel pummelled. When better transfers exist, there is no excuse for this in such an expensive set by a major label.

Here are some of the tracks where I notice the problems. There may be more skips in each cut than the ones I noted, and I took less notes in disc 2, though the problems continue:

Shanghai Shuffle (1924) [edit 2:00]
Copenhagen (1924) take 13928 [bands' pauses edited at very end, making band appear to speed up]
Alabamy Bound (1925) [take 4, extreme edits at :32 -:50 & 2:37, poor EQ. This is the worst of a bad lot.]
T.N.T (1925) [poor edits & EQ]
The Stampede (1926) [bad edit at 1:31 etc]
Jackass Blues (1926) [1:22 bad edit]
Henderson Blues (1926) [bad edit at 2:22]
The Chant (1926) [poor edit at 1:10]
Rocky Mountain Blues (1927) [poor edit at :28 seconds]
St. Louis Shuffle (1927) [poor edit at 2:34]
I'm Coming Virginia (1927) [violent cut at 1:11]
Variety Stomp (1927) [beat missing at 0:13]
St. Louis Blues (1927) [possible minor glitches at 1:26 and 1:37]
King Porter Stomp (1928) [edits at :12 and 1:10]
Old Black Joe Blues (1928) [rather abrupt cutoff at end]
Comin' And Goin' (1931) [skip at :03-4]

The problems continue, though they diminish somewhat, through the second disc, and seem to disappear, for the most part, on disc 3.

Unfortunately, I don't know of another set that is this comprehensive, and I don't even know of a single other set that has _all_ of the listed cuts in one place. The other options tend to be collections with every single take of every single song from a given period. From sampling tracks on Amazon, it appears that the Classics sets actually use some of these same edited versions. As does Ken Burns' recent Henderson collection.

Whoever packaged the set did a beautiful, beyond-fetishistic job of including every single photo and every line of text from the original package. Even notes containing information that was out-of-date after 1961 was re-included and carefully dated ("A tome about Henderson is in the works"), though additional updated notes correct the information elsewhere. It's too bad that the "authenticity" of the reproduction extended to the wretched sound of the original set.

Anyway, buyer beware.

 

Thanks for posting this; I have the 1961 set, which I admittedly haven't listened to much in the past 10 years since I've had it, and I had no idea these kinds of issues were part of it.

 

You're welcome!

 

.

 

Don't know of the best substitute for the (aptly named) Frustration set -- I'd have to go track by track. Right off the bat, though, I can recommend the following Henderson sets, remastered by J.R.T. Davies:

Hep CD 1009 Wild Party!
Hep CD 1016 Yeah Man!

These collect the crucial 1933-34 Henderson sides. If you have any interest in jazz you must own these. The best of these sides represent a peak in jazz that has rarely been equalled, and never surpassed. The collective swing, virtuosity, and depth of feeling of these musicians has to be heard to be believed. It was a cruel irony that this band broke up just before their music, as taken over by Benny Goodman and christened "swing," conquered America. Henderson became Goodman's staff arranger and the same arrangements that sank without a trace when performed by Henderson's own band became huge hits for Goodman. (Who was the critic who said of rock bands that good albums are made by bands that have been together a long time, and great albums are made by bands about to break up? I think the same holds true for jazz. I can think of many examples, and Henderson's 1933-34 sides are one.)

Timeless CBC 1-064 The Harmony & Vocalion Sessions, Volume 1: 1925-1926
Timeless CBC 1-069 The Harmony & Vocalion Sessions, Volume 2: 1927-1928

These are Henderson discs to treasure. Performances and sonics are both amazing (although the earliest sides are acoustically recorded and sound it).

Now, here's a bonus. I consider these next two discs the Holy Grail of jazz on CD:

King Jazz KJ 112 FS King Oliver, The Complete 1923/31 Heritage, Vol. 1: 1923
King Jazz KJ 113 FS King Oliver, The Complete 1923/31 Heritage, Vol. 2: 1923/26

Where to start? These performances are legendary, and rightly so: the peak of classic New Orleans jazz on record, with Louis Armstrong playing second cornet to the great King Oliver in his prime. Enough has been said about these records that I don't need to add anything here. But the sonics! These are acoustic recordings, and not the best recorded or pressed to begin with. Shellac is the only source, and some of these sides only exist in badly beat up copies. All other CD versions are hopelessly murky. You can detect hints of the greatness beneath, but it's like the Sistine Chapel before it was cleaned: just different shades of brown.

The King Jazz discs? The Sistine Chapel after it was cleaned. John R. T. Davies worked miracles with these sides. The liner notes boast that for the first time, you can hear each instrumental line so clearly that you could transcribe it on paper. And it's true. How did Davies do it? And how long did it take him? We'll never know, but I for one am so grateful that he did it, and that we have the results to treasure and enjoy.

NOTE: There is a 2CD set of the 1923 King Oliver sides on the Retrieval label, which also boasts transfers by John R. T. Davies. I have collected a number of the Retrieval discs, and I recommend caution regarding them. I believe they are mastered from transfers done by Davies in the 1970s, but in general they are markedly inferior to the same material mastered by Davies and issued on other labels. I'm not sure why, but I think in some cases the digital transfers were poorly done. In one case (Spirits of Rhythm) the Retrieval transfer runs at the wrong speed! I would buy a Retrieval set only if the same material transferred by Davies were otherwise unavailable. In particular, the King Oliver set is nowhere near as good as the King Jazz version. IIRC it had an unpleasant "digital" sound; maybe some kind of digital processing was indiscriminately applied. I got rid of mine in a hurry.

FURTHER NOTE: King Jazz was an Italian collectors' label. It is long gone, and all discs are OOP. Take my advice: if you are interested in jazz at all, move heaven and earth to find the King Oliver set. Then, if you can, collect the rest of the King Jazz discs mastered by Davies, catalog numbers 101-123 (later titles were not mastered by Davies). All of them are winners: four discs of the great Bechet/Mezzrow sides, two discs of Jelly Roll Morton's solo piano recordings, two of the New Orleans Rhythm Kings (including the sides with Bix and Morton), four of Fats Waller & His Rhythm, two of Louis Armstrong with Clarence Williams, and a couple of other things. Are all essential jazz, complete and chronological as far as they go, and presented in digital sound that will probably never be equalled.

LATER: I looked around the web for the King Jazz Oliver discs, but apparently they can't be found anywhere. Hen's teeth, rabbit's horns. There are many CD reissues, since the material is out of copyright in Europe. Not having heard them all, I'd go with the Retrieval set as second choice to the King Jazz.

 

Actually, the 1951 4-volume set of the Louis Armstrong Story was on the Columbia Masterworks label. First LP pressings were on the green label with silver print. Later pressings came on the blue/gold (or blue/silver) label, and then on the grey/black "6-eye" label. The four LPs were reissued on the popular label (red/black "6-eye" label) in 1956 as CL851 to 854.

I have a green/silver label copy of ML4386 (Volume 4) in my possession, and passed on a green/silver label copy of Volume 1 (ML4383) due to its condition.

I've double-checked my copy of ML4386 (and that not-so-clean copy of ML4383) again, and found that they're actually ML54386 and ML54383. These LPs use the very same vinyl and mastering as ML4386 and ML4383, but were sold through Columbia Records' mail-order factory-direct outlet (later to become the Columbia Record Club, and then today's Columbia House). The mail-direct outlet was located in Bridgeport, CT at the time of ML54383-54386's original release; it moved to Terre Haute, IN sometime between the mid-'50s and the mid-'60s.

 

I finally finished cataloguing all the editing problems with "Fletcher Henderson: A Study In Frustration," for the sake of reporting it to Sony....though I doubt they care. The later edits are less obvious than the early ones, but there's still the strange sense of the whole band skipping ahead as a unit. Here's the list:

Disc 1:
Shanghai Shuffle (1924) [edit 2:00]
Copenhagen (1924) take 13928 [bands' pauses edited at very end, making band appear to speed up]
Alabamy Bound (1925) [take 4, extreme edits at :32 -:50 & 2:37, poor EQ. This is the worst of a bad lot.]
T.N.T (1925) [poor edits & EQ]
The Stampede (1926) [bad edit at 1:31 etc]
Jackass Blues (1926) [1:22 bad edit]
Henderson Blues (1926) [bad edit at 2:22]
The Chant (1926) [poor edit at 1:10]
Rocky Mountain Blues (1927) [poor edit at :28 seconds]
St. Louis Shuffle (1927) [poor edit at 2:34]
I'm Coming Virginia (1927) [violent cut at 1:11]
Variety Stomp (1927) [beat missing at 0:13]
St. Louis Blues (1927) [possible minor glitches at 1:26 and 1:37]

Disc 2:
King Porter Stomp (1928) [edits at :12 and 1:10]
Old Black Joe Blues (1928) [rather abrupt cutoff at end]
Easy Money (1928) [edit at 1:26]
Come On Baby (1928) [edit at :25]
Raisin' The Roof (1929) [minor edit at :23]
Blazin' (1929) [edit at 2:31]
Wang Wang Blues (1929) [are they edits or actually sloppy performance? maybe the latter.]
My Gal Sal (1931) [almost subtle edits at :22, 1:25 and 1:46]
Clarinet Marmalade (1931) [1:22, perhaps?]
Comin' And Goin' (1931) [BAD skip at :03-4 and possibly at 1:25 & 1:56 & 2:21 & 2:56]
Sugar (1931) [possible small jumps at 0:25 and 0:57]

Disc 3:
Yeah Man (1933) [decently timed but audible edit at 1:57]
Stealin' Apples (1936) [edit at :53 or :54]
Back In Your Own Backyard (1937) [edit at 1:50]
Sing You Sinners (1937) [small edit at 2:06]

 

45RPM boxed sets

Since posting, I've picked up a 1951 pressing of The Louis Armstrong Story Vol. 4 (ML4386) and the 45RPM boxed set of the same material The Louis Armstrong Story Vol. 4 (B-240). The boxed set looks like it was issued at about the same time as the LP version. The ML4386 wins out to these ears (even against the JSP version, and 6-eye), but then the 45s were not in the best condition.

I'm hoping to explore the 45RPM box sets further soon. Has anybody else had any experiences with these sets? I'd imagine that the format would enable possible improvements, but who knows what care was taken over the 45s.

My understanding is that the RCA Living Stereo 45RPM sets are typically inferior to the LPs. Is it generally the same for the 50s Columbia material?
-David

 

Any opinion on the sound quality of the 70s Time-Life silver jazz box sets. I've got the opportunity to buy them all (mostly sealed) real cheap.

 

I have about seven of these sets, including the Louis Armstrong, and I've been happy with the sound quality. Also, great material on these sets. I typically find them from between $1 to $3.
-David

 

I ran across an interview with mastering engineer Doug Pomeroy where he discusses Phil Schaap's work on the Sony 4 CD Armstrong set. An excerpt;


DP: Well, I think Phil Schaap (noted jazz scholar and producer of the box set), like a lot of amateur engineers, has the idea that if it’s bright-sounding, it’s hi-fi. But, I ask, is that real? Is that what music sounds like in the real word; in a recording studio or on a stage or even in your living room? Is it realistic? I would say no. I believe what Phil does is transfer and release "flat" transfers, which means he does not impose any roll-off of the high frequencies, nor apply the proper bass boost, which should be done, based on the EQ curves used by the record company when the discs were originally recorded. What he's done sounds just plain wrong to me. And, I think he likes it because the boosted high frequency response exaggerates detail. I love detail, too - I want to hear it all - but on the other hand, I don’t want to falsify the overall sound of the music.


the above quote comes from part 2 of the interview, at;

http://www.smokebox.net/archives/rootcellar/rootpomeroy2.html

part 1 is at;

http://www.smokebox.net/archives/rootcellar/rootpomeroy1.html


These are very informative interviews - Pomeroy discusses his early career at Columbia Records (in the late '60s) and progresses up to his current work.

 

Audubon

My reply might be too esoteric for anyone to reply, but John R T Davies' experience with the Fletcher Henderson/Louis Armstrong 78s goes back quite a bit before JSP. In the 1960s, he issued a series of record sets on his own private label, Auduban. They were limited to 99 copies each. I was fortunate to snag one set. The transfers are, by far, the best acoustic era transfers I have ever heard. If you are wondering who invented "breath of life" in remastering, I'd give a nod to Mr. Davies.

I also TOTALLY agree with Steve's suggestion about the Columbia 78 sets pressed in the 1940s. Some sound superior to the original OKEH's due to better pressing quality (for the General era stuff). #2 in my book are the 1951 Columbia lp set and the corresponding French Phillips set. The French set is pressed on better vinyl. For digital, the JSP box is king.

The original OKEH's must be heard to be beleived. I have a few of the Hines/Armstrong disks. These really represent perfect sound forever.

 

I always thought that DSD would be a perfect technology to capture the fidelity of 78's (PCM transfers of 78's always seem to lose something and give the sound unnecessary punch and brightness where it doesn't exist in the original). One can only imagine what the Armstrong set would have sounded like had the mastering been done by Vic Anesini.

 

I just picked up the JSP box based on the recommendations here. I love the sound quality and you can't beat that price. Thanks folks.

 

The search continues

FWIW, the 45RPM sets of the Louis Armstrong Story suck. I managed to find more sets in great condition, but the sound is bright, almost unbearable. Next stop is a complete set of the 1951 LP pressings (yet to arrive, but I'll post my findings).

The temptation to upgrade my Technics to 78RPM and pick up Okeh originals like this is growing. The John Davies CDs are great, but I'm craving more.
-David

 

Quick update: The 1951 LP pressings arrived today, and after a quick clean, I'm REALLY enjoying them. I'm reaching for the volume knob to turn it up (with the 45s, I was lurching over to turn them down)...that's a crucial proof.

Incidentally, they clearly hadn't been cleaned since 1951. Yuck. No inner sleeves, and the cardboard was decomposing, sort of crumbling into particles, onto the vinyl. But the vinyl itself underneath is impeccable, and the labels show no signs of spindle marks.

Time will tell, but I think these will get more play than the CDs (as great as those are). I'm not sure how soon I'll get to check out the 78s, but that plan is still in the works.
-David

 

78 question

Would this be an example of the Columbia reissues? How can we tell that they're from 1942-44? Is it just be seeing that they are on a red label and reissuing earlier material?
-David

 

I did a few spot comparisons between the JSP set and the Sony set - it's a shame the EQ is rather thin and piercing on the Sony set, because the raw transfers themselves are excellent, maybe worth revisiting just to master them properly.

I did a quick test with Cornet Chop Suey, which I mentioned in a previous post. From Mr. Davies:

"Cornet Chop Suey" I pitched in Eb which seemed right to me on a couple of counts...tonality and feasibility of instrument fingering. Regrettably I did not have an original master from which to work and relate to others in the session. The original copyright deposition of the piece was written in the key of F and, since the cornet is a transposing instrument and speaks a tone below written notes, I figured that I was pretty safe in pitching it in Eb...... but no ! It turns out, since encountering an original master pressing of the piece, that the pitch should be F. Interestingly, the Sony set actually offers this track at BOTH pitches !!... so they evidently had doubts also.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...ngineer-john-rt-davies-rip.34134/#post-627255

I wanted to hear how Davies' mastering would sound in F, so I made the simple correction in a sound editing file. Note, while this does get the music in the right pitch, changing the pitch of every bit of sound data after transfer is not really the same as physically speeding up a vintage 78 and then transferring that signal into a computer - I imagine the musical data would be close, but I would think other sounds like surface noise, etc. wouldn't be the same. For our purposes, I'm pretty sure it's close enough, but just something to be aware.

Anyway, after speeding up Davies' mastering, I toned down the treble and upper mids on the Sony mastering just to get something reasonably closer to the tonality of Davies' mastering. Basically, Davie's transfer from a 78 will not be as clean and clear as the Sony transfer - I'm tempted to say it's "woollier" in comparison - BUT it's much more pleasing and natural, a warmer, full-bodied sound. Just so there's no misinterpretation, when I say the Sony transfer is clearer, there's nothing dull about Davies' transfer, it just sounds "woollier" or rougher than Sony's (not surprising since it's a 78 he's using, not an original part). For that reason alone, I wonder if the Sony set would benefit from, say, a vintage tube mastering to give the sound a bit more body, especially with better EQ and maybe even no CEDAR processing?

 

So here in 2017 is the JSP Box still regarded as the cd set to get?

 

Yep.

 

Pretty much so, although in the meantime I realised that the sound could have so much better had they messed with it less in mastering. Case in point, disc 3 is magnificent, the rest of them sound way more muffled.

Sony/Legacy could have done a great job had the time of release had been any different. The later single-disc reissue of the 1950s album "Armstrong Plays Fats Waller" came out a few years after the "Complete" set and it contains as bonus tracks new transfers of all relevant 1920s/30s recordings of Waller's music. They sound way better than their older transfers and also much better than the JSP discs. Almost as good as that metal master transfer posted on Youtube, which sounds breathtakingly good given its age.