CD-R vs. original

If I wanted to burn some of my gold CDs (for my own archives), would they lose any quality? I'm kinda new to making copies and they seem to sound identical to their originals. I treat my originals with kid gloves, but I can toss CD-Rs around and not worry so much.

 

i've been wondering the same lately...i would presume that the best way to archive gold discs would be burning them to the new MOFI Gold CD-R's - has anybody tried these things??

i guess the only advantage of burning to the Gold CD-R's would be that they should "survive longer" when compared to regular CD-R's, as well as result in less "data loss" when burning to them...or so their advertisement would have one believe

 

First I've heard about the Mo-Fi cd-r's, I'm interested but can they be worth $3.00 each?- here's a link:

http://amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=AMFCDR1J


These would be great for home musicians recording demos.

 

The most difficult part in making a CD-R copy is actually not the writing of the disc but the extraction of the data from the original disc. Some DVD/CD drives are incapable of extracting audio data with 100% acuracy.

As a general rule, the extraction speed should be set lower than what is technically possible. Although many drives can now rip an audio CD at 32x speed, setting it to 16x speed and lower gives better results.

 

The CD-R vs. the original debate has been going on for some time now.

Of course the method in which you make your CD-R is going to add to the sound debate. When I make a CD-R for myself I use one of two methods. First is my trusty old Pioneer self standing CD Recorder, which with a quick check of volume and balance controls seems to make near perfect sounding discs, but with two problems...One you must sit there and babysit the machine and manually push the track number between each track or I end up with a one track disc and second it records in REAL time, not 2 or more times speed.

My other machine is the 2 disc (2X speed) Phillips CD Recorder. This machine is easy to use and has no adjustments to set up, you just put in a blank CD-R and the disc that you want to copy and in HALF the time of the disc that you're copying plus 2 minutes to finalize the disc and it's done! I have noticed that THIS machine seems to drop a bit of the bottom end off and is sometimes a hair louder than the original disc, otherwise no major problems! I'm guessing that you plan to use the CD-R's when at work, driving or on the beach instead of your normal good home sound system so the Phillips 2X machine will be fine!

Now comes the debate...

Many will say that a CD-R can beat the sound of the original. I don't know HOW it could, unless you're throwing in some sort of processing? Others will say throw it thru a computer and burn it at 48 times the length of the disc. Well, I for one, don't like having to wait to download a CD and then wait for a computer to process back to a CD-R! I guess that if I had one of those expensive computers that does everything with 80 GB, then MAYBE that process would work, but I don't so the computer way is out for me!

Good luck in whatever you decide, if nothing else, it's a good idea to backup those favorite GOLD DISCS and other standard redbook discs. I personally plan to buy some of those new MFSL blank GOLD DISCS CD-R's to save some of my favorites to CD-R!

Chris C

 

Right... Many threads on this subject.

 

Copy them on the computer for best results. If you can't hear a difference, go for it. You shouldn't lose any quality.

Computer tips:
If you use a computer, burn at 4x or 8x.

Don't play the source at real time when copying. In other words, don't go through the soundcard. Rip the data. If your computer is powerful enough, and you have two disc drives, you can do a 1:1 copy.

Use the DAO method, or better yet, burn a disc image in CD Creator or Nero to get a clone.

I find my Yamaha F1 burner rips better at it's fastet speed. I get glitches at slower ones, even when using EAC. In fact, I have found no benefit to ripping with EAC, even for damaged CDs. Adobe Audition's extraction worked better!

Let's dispel the misinformation right now: The blank you use makes no difference in sound quality. Just use good blanks and you wil be OK.

 

Possibly true, but, you must admit that those new MFSL GOLD DISC CD-R's will far outlive a standard computer CD-R, right?

Chris C

 

Yes, they do seem like a good idea. I had seen those, but forgot. It would be nice to burn some of my better redbook CDs on gold MFSL. If there is such a thing as CD degradation, I'd hate if my 20 year old CDs were lost.

 

I always burn my cd-rs at the lowest rate possible. Use high quality media. I have a couple of LG drives and they work great, I use audiograbber as my ripping software and rip at the slowest speed. When I do burn my cds, I always archive them as wav files as a data disk and make audio cds from the data disk. And make about 3 data backup copies and one audio cd-r of important stuff. I haven't noticed any difference between the original and the copies. And yes burning at DAO is the best way.

 

A fast computer makes a difference. I have an Intel HT chip which allows me to do other things while burning CDs WITHOUT the burn-proof enabled. And, since it is a modern board, I can copy fast, with only the limitation of my CD-ROM slowing things down. But, I burn at 4x or 8x for best sound.

If David just wants backup CD-Rs, there's no need to spend all that money for expensive blanks. All he has to do is get something like Verbatims or Fujis. Even TDK, or any other major brand will work.

 

Hey gang,

There are so many variables to CD-R burning. First, are we talking about stand-alone burners like the HHB models or computer-generated CD-R burning?

NEVER burn at a speed higher than 4x. Error rates increase dramatically thereafter...

I tested the MFSL CD-Rs with a professional CD analyzer and they performed marvelously; among the best I've seen, and I recommend them highly. There are some brands to avoid, but I'd get in trouble naming them here.

Data extraction is important, but don't forget that it's just as important to engrave the data just as accurately onto the CD-R. Laser power (they do burn out, don't forget), the disc itself, the program you use to burn the disc...Like your stereo system, your copy will only be as good as the weakest link in the chain.

The key is to minimize mathematical error. If you hear differences between a CD and a copy of that CD on a CD-R, it's because mathematical error came into play. There is no such thing as no errors on a CD-R. They should not be audible, though...

 

I'm still not sure that there is such a thing as CD degradation myself David! I've got plently of old CD's from 1983-84 that still play fine for me. I've NEVER had a CD go bad on me personally! I even have my original George Michael "FAITH" CD that since day one looks like it will degrade with lots of waves and swoushing marks on it. I've kept it to see if I'd have any problems and alas...NONE!

Chris C

 

You must have some good extraction software to rip the CD to your hard drive before you burn. Do not make the copy directly from one CD-burner to another. Many people use a free program called Exact Audio Copy: http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

As freeware, EAC is hardly user friendly, there are no real instructions for use per se. You will need to reference the author's home page for some clues: http://www.chrismyden.com/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=Elite_DAE/eac&file=faq

As for which CD blanks to use, they are not all created equal. There are essentially two schools of thought on this, those that rely on measurements/test of the CD-Rs (there are lots of people who make a study of this thing on the web) and the subjective types who rely on what *sounds* better to them.

In general, in terms of widely available media, the objectivists often recommend Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs, the last CD-Rs still made in Japan. Taiyo does not really sell any of their own media under their own brand name. They are a factory that other brand names use to produce their CD-Rs. It can be difficult trying to figure out if your CD blanks are genuine Taiyo Yuden because the companies that brand their CD-Rs often use stock from multiple vendors in the same wrapping. Fuji often sells Taiyo Yuden under its brand name. Taiyo Yuden can be identified by sight by their aqua (greenish blue) hue. If you read the Fuji wrapper, and it says "made in Japan", that's also a good sign, but not PROOF of Taiyo Yuden inside. People have noted cheap Taiwanese media inside the "Japan" wrappers. However, you will want to be sure you got the real deal, and there is software you can download for free to read the CD-R blank and tell you who made it. It's called CDR Media Code Identifier 1.63. Here is a place to download:
http://www.pcworld.com/downloads/file_description/0,fid,22912,tk,hsx,00.asp

The subjectivist camp often recommend black CD-Rs. These black CD-Rs are not always made by the best manufacturers (Taiyo Yuden for example does not make them), and may not last as long as some of the better regular CD-Rs, but they are said to provide superior sound quality. There is a big paper on the subject, you need to go to this site, click on "Downloads" then download the White Paper: http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/ He's done an incredible amount of testing on all the permutations of black CD-Rs, and lists the ones he likes best, they also are not all made equal. Obviously, this is just one person's subjective opinion, and that's the problem with relying on the subjectivists-- no two will agree as to which blanks sound "best". There is no disputing the findings of the objectivists, they can show you graphs plotting the various types of errors that are detectable on various brands of media they test.

Personally, I *can* hear differences in CD media. I do like the black CD-Rs (I use the hard-to-find Memorex from 2002, not the newer stock), they have a rich, warmer, and more "analog-y" sound. The Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs also sound noticeably better than the budget discs you can buy. They are a *little* on the bright side, but sound almost identical to the original CD in tone and timbre, but a little more "crisp" and clear.

Yes, I do believe it's possible to improve on a pressed CD if you do *everything* right, have the right blanks, software, and good hardware, but these differences are *subtle*. By far the best thing you can do is use the right extraction software, EAC is key.

Here is a forum with obsessives with more answers:
http://www.cdrinfo.com/forum/default.asp

See, it's all very simple!

 

Nope. They all do their little time-accellerated studies and tests, and marketing hype, but the truth is that no one knows just how long they will last. Any quality blank that is properly cared for should out last all of us. The old yellow dye TDK used back in the early 90s still plays. My friend has some bootlegs dtored on them.

Again, marketing hype to help you part with your money. If you want high quality blanks, buy MAM-A (formerly Mitsui). But, again, in David's case, he just wants backups. he can always make new copies should the first copy gets wasted.

 

This is actually not always true. Different media perform better at different burn rates on different burners, it's complicated. Modern CD-Rs have max burn speeds of up to 52X, and test show that error rates actually increase on some media at very slow speeds like 2X and 4X, they actually *want* to be burned faster, that's how they are tuned. For some media, you actually are better off at 8X, 12X or even 16X.

There are sooooooooo many variables it can drive you batty.

 

With Roxio's Easy CD creator, I use the "Smartburn" option that burns at the optimal speed - never any problems with that. And, when given an option in Nero, I usually go with 32x, no problems with the resulting sound quality.

 

COME ON ROB...Name some names, after all if we hadn't started name calling years ago, we may never had known about our Steve Hoffman, right?

Chris C

 

Why buy cheap CD-Rs that are 'tuned' to be burned so fast in the first place? Buy good CD-Rs that can be burned correctly at 4x or slower.

 

Hi Grant,

I disagree. IMO, a computer will not outperform a nice quality standalone burner.

Take care,
Jeffrey

 

I was having problems with copies I was making for clients. The top end was fluttery sounding and I could actually tell the copy from the original. One client even thought it was some sort of trick and put me through a blind test. I got it right every time.

Then we bought a stack of Plextor burners. They make the truest copies I've heard. I did a BLER test (Block Error Rate) on them and they were nearly identical to the originals. The best copies Glenn Meadows had seen except for his Yamaha 201 burner.

The point is there are things that go one when you copy CD's. Don't expect them to sound like the original disc.

 

I *never* use cheap media and don't recommend it. I typically use special premium Taiyo Yudens. Almost all modern media is rated to 40X, 48X or 52X. Besides, if I can get equivalent error rates burning at 8X on 48X media than I can at 2X on 16X-rated media, what's the difference besides the time I save? I almost always burn at 8X and I have terrific measureable results with the Taiyo Yudens.

 

Here we go with that debate I said would happen...

All of this talk about CD-R burning has made me decide to head down to the basement and CD-R that Side 4 instrumentals only of Brian Wilson's "SMiLE" vinyl that my wife bought me for Christmas!

For the record, I'll be using my old Pioneer stand alone CD Recorder in REAL time with a blank TDK 80 minute CD-R. Whatever time I have left on the disc I will copy my new vinyl reissue of The Critters "Touch & GO" album, which I've never had the pleasure of hearing before now!

You kids play nice while I'm gone!

Chris C

 

Uh, sorry Chris. No can do.

However I can say GOOD things. Companies like when we say GOOD things.

Plextor and Pioneer burners are excellent when using computers to do the job. Highly recommended.

As for CD-Rs, go with Taiyo Yuden, Quantegy, MoFi (no particular order). Those more expensive CD-Rs are usually truly better. Get a spindle of 100 CD-Rs for 30 bucks and you are getting, well, y'know. Sadly, there are some manufacturer's product that have consistently failed when put through critical analysis...at least in my experience.