The Rush cd mastering thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by steeler1979, Apr 15, 2010.

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  1. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    Hee, hee. :) OK, with the Stanley Cup Playoffs going on, it's taking me a little longer than usual doing some of these comparisons. Here is the latest Moving Pictures with the MFSL sample from Ambassador:

    [​IMG]

    The MFSL is actually pretty similar to the VANK and ANMD. All of them are smiley faced vs the 03 (or greater) Atomic.

    Just too much low low end for me. Those other discs sound OK when you listen to them just by themselves, but when you compare them to the 03 (or greater) Atomic, then the low low end sticks out a little too much IMO.

    However, I would say that if you're looking for a good #2, I'd take the MFSL because it has a tamer top end than the 2 early Canadian discs.


    I still haven't done an up to date comparison of the Japanese GUP and Signals. I now have the 25-8P and AMCY's in a pile here, but I always find it tougher to compare multiple discs, so I put it off. And since these are my two favorite Rush discs, once I do the comparison, then I can no longer look forward to doing it, if that makes any crazy sense. ;)

    [Added:] Shoot, used prices for the MP MFSL seem to be running about $50. I'd pick one up if I could get it for ~$30.
     
  2. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Yes, and the early Japanese issues of FBN and P. Waves have the real album artwork on the back inserts, and not those crappy looking generic ones. Since those two have the same masterings all around I went for the better looking ones. :righton:
     
  3. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Did you also include the ANC-1-1103 sample I sent you?

    I'd agree with this. However, I should warn people that at least some versions of the MFSL have a track timing problem. Specifically, the first few seconds of the beginning of both YYZ and Limelight (at least) are both cut off. The beginnings are instead made part of the end of the respective previous track, so Red Barchetta - YYZ and YYZ - Limelight. To fix this would require ripping the CD and messing around the CUE sheet. Not very fun at all, and I don't think it's really worth it when you can get an 03 Matrix Atomic even on Amazon for a reasonable price. It's really a shame that this problem exists in a $50 dollar CD.

    Sure, it's like solving a mystery. :)
     
  4. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Preferred Mastering List Update

    Now that kevin5brown has confirmed what I have suspected about the 03 Matrix, I will now amend my personal preferred mastering list:

    PREFERRED MASTERING LIST

    NOTE: Final Choice, Almost Certain

    - Moving Pictures: Atomic 03+ Matrix
    - Signals: AMCY/SHM
    - Grace Under Pressure: TBD (preliminary: Anthem)
    - Power Windows: SHM
    - Hold Your Fire: SHM
    - Presto: TBD (preliminary: Any pre-remaster pressing)
    - Roll The Bones: TBD (preliminary: AF Gold)
    - Counterparts: TBD (preliminary: Vinyl)
    - Test For Echo: TBD
    - Vapor Trails: TBD (preliminary: Wait for vinyl remixed-remaster?)
    - Snakes & Arrows: TBD (preliminary: Vinyl or Live version)


    Here's a recap of the samples I've posted that are still up:

    Hold Your Fire - Force Ten

    - AMCY

    Presto - Show Don't Tell

    - AMCY
    - Atlantic
    - 1997 Remaster

    Presto - The Pass

    - AMCY
    - Atlantic
    - 1997 Remaster

    Presto - Scars

    - AMCY
    - Atlantic
    - 1997 Remaster

    Presto - Presto

    - AMCY
    - Atlantic
    - 1997 Remaster

    Presto - Superconductor

    - AMCY
    - Atlantic
    - 1997 Remaster
     
  5. shirtandtie

    shirtandtie Forum Resident

    Which title wasn't the same out of curiosity? Every piece of this puzzle helps unravel the whole mystery. :D

    Plus I'd hate to grab an early ANMD only to find it doesn't match up with an ANC or WANK.
     
  6. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    Ok, I am still revisiting and consulting my notes. This is what I have for Moving Pictures (and that I'll try to confirm tonight):

    ANMD = ANC-1-1030
    VANK = US silverface

    So in this case, the ANMD is not the same as the VANK. However ... when you look at the graph in post 951, the ANMD is lower in volume than the VANK ... but it might have a hotter top end. So I have the following two questions for myself for later on:

    Is the ANMD the same as the VANK, just level shifted, or is there an EQ difference?
    Is there "clipping" for the VANK that the ANMD doesn't have?

    I'll give you a hint for the 2nd Q: the ANMD did have a greater DR number by 1 dB vs the VANK. 15 vs 14 I think. And the EAC numbers I have for them are:

    VANK/US sf: 100 99.7 100 99.9 100 100 100
    ANMD/ANC-1-1030: 95.7 89 94.8 82.1 99.5 91.5 75.6

    The VANK/US sf appears "clipped" from those numbers. But it gets confusing because my notes also say that someone posted these EAC numbers:

    ANC-11030: 100 99.7 100 99.9 100 100 100

    Not ANC-1-1030, but ANC-11030. And that one would match the VANK/US silverface.

    Confused yet?

    :)

    Ambassador: I only DL'ed the MFSL and VANK of yours, and your VANK matched mine. I didn't see your ANC-1-11030 (but I'll check). That's ANC-1-11030? Maybe yours is what I have down as ANC-11030 ...

    MP MFSL track timing: that's not an issue if you listen to all the way through, right?
     
  7. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Probably a miscommunication. ;) My CD is an ANC 11103, though the matrix says ANK1130 :confused::

    [​IMG]

    Correct.
     
  8. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    I wish I could. I don't know how, sorry.
     
  9. btomarra

    btomarra Classic Rock Audiophile

    Location:
    Little Rock, AR
    Gerry, do you mean 2112 and P Waves? I think the JPn pressings started with 2112.

    :)

    Brian
     
  10. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
  11. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Interesting, your CRC pressing is different than my non CRC. The catalog number at 9 o'clock on mine is ANC-1-1030, there is no CRC @ 2:30 and the matrix is completely different mine being 1K9/A2-1030. Other than these they are identical.

    I have a suspicion, pure speculation, that your CRC pressing may be sourced from the ANK-1030 second pressing runs while retaining the first pressing catalog number because of it being a club pressing.
     
  12. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    That does make sense to me. I did confirm that the peak numbers of the ANMD match what I have for the ANC-1-1030, so they must have switched back at some point? Or the ANMD came from Anthem directly (not Columbia) so they used what they had which was still the ANC-1-1030 mastering?

    Anyway:

    [​IMG]

    The ANMD and VANK are different. And I would pick the ANMD over the VANK too. :shh:

    DR14 -0.44 dB -16.27 dB 01 Tom Sawyer 03 Atomic
    DR15 -0.38 dB -17.55 dB 01 Tom Sawyer ANMD
    DR15 -0.91 dB -18.18 dB 01 Tom Sawyer MFSL
    DR14 .. over .. -15.74 dB 01 Tom Sawyer VANK

    The VANK isn't "clipped". :) Audacity says there's no clipping, which means that it must be peak limited (right?) or compressed a hair vs the ANMD.

    So basically, I'd pick the Atomic 03 as #1, MFSL #2, ANMD/ANC-1-1030 #3, and the VANK/ANC-11030 4th. And the '97 remaster after all those. :wave: (DR of 11 for that one; not bad in the big scheme of things, but not as good as any of these.)

    But I'll be honest too and say that the MFSL is growing on me. I don't have it, but I'm going to listen to the ANMD some more casually over the next few days vs the Atomic 03 ...

    My brain hurts ... unless that 1 db difference between the ANMD/ANC-1-1030 and VANK/ANC-11030 is only due to that peak on the ANMD vs th VANK at about 14 kHz ... Then I'd prefer the VANK over the ANMD ... must listen some more, must listen some more ...
     
  13. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    There's always vinyl. ;) Fizbin has convinced me to go that route. :)
     
  14. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    :agree: This makes sense. Now, if we could get that ANK-1030 into the equation we would know "if" the mastering was changed at all for the second pressing although I think, again speculation, that it wasn't based on your ANMD-1030 findings. Too bad I sold mine a few years back.

    It could very well be if the peaks are sitting at 100%.

    I would pick just a little differently though Kevin.
    1. Canadian 1st ANC-1-130
    2. W. Germany Atomic 82* *** 2
    3. Japan 25·8P-****
    The ANK and ANMD-1030 couldn't beat these 3 for both Darcy and I because they sound clinical and pinched in comparison. The MFSL wasn't bad (it is one that I hesitated along time with before putting it on my not recommended MFSL list). To me it sounds like the top and bottom frequencies were pinched a little too hard.
     
  15. pig whisperer

    pig whisperer CD Member

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    Is this for "Moving Pictures"? This isn't true. Our tastes are probably opposite for this one. The only one I dislike more than the Canada 1st is the MoFi (you have my copy of the Canada 1st -- and you remember where I originally got that one and why ;)). Put that near the bottom of my list.

    At one point or another I have had the Japan, US atomic, W. Germany, and Brazil pressings in my collection -- I now keep the Brazil. I don't remember where I would rank the Canada 2nd. It doesn't matter, the Canada 2nd or 3rd pressings my brother had for "Moving Pictures" and other Rush albums have lost the shootouts for me.
     
  16. Ambassador

    Ambassador Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    There's a Brazil MP CD?
     
  17. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    I'm surprised the MFSL doesn't get more love !! I even posted just recently that I really don't like most MFSLs because I think they tweak too much, but for Moving Pictures, it continues to grow on me. A few days ago I would have only spent into the low $30's to get one. I can now justify to myself up to the high $30's. :)

    And actually, based on just the samples that I have, other than the top ends, I think the MFSL is pretty similar to the ANC-1/ANMD and VANK/ANC-11030. I think it's the 03 Atomic which really is the "different" sounding one. So for example, if I would allot myself 2 discs for listening, it would be the 03 Atomic and the MFSL.
     
  18. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    It does. ;)
    I found my notes on my preferences and the top three is a little different now.

    1. Canadian Anthem ANC-1
    2. MFSL
    3. USA Atomic or Japan 25·8P depending on your mood

    The W. Germany Atomic had sizzle on the top end I wasn't fond of but IIRC it has the same peaks as the USA Atomic.
     
  19. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    And ... just because I'm curious, anyone have the complete list of MFSLs for Rush?

    Dave ... I know you have your MFSL thread, but maybe you could comment here on just the Rush discs?

    I seem to remember not much love for 2112, for example?
     
  20. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Sure Kevin, I've had 2112, Signals and Moving Pictures. 2112 was unbearable at loud volumes and hurt the ears. Even the mid-range was pushed too hard on this one. Signals was slightly strident in the top end and boomy in the bottom end. Moving Pictures is the best of the three for me. It was not immediately convincing to pick the Canadian over this one.
     
  21. Dave

    Dave Esoteric Audio Research Specialist™

    Location:
    B.C.
    Forgot at posting time but I have heard the MFSL Permanent Waves. Not very impressive IMO. Similar to 2112's sonics.
     
  22. kevin5brown

    kevin5brown Analog or bust.

    Thanks !! So I would be good with Signals and if someday I pick up Moving Pictures.
     
  23. ricks

    ricks Senior Member

    Location:
    127.0.0.1:443
    Not sure why you are are using absolutes? It must be pointed out that the Moving Pictures WG Atomic that is "bad"/"inferior" has matrix ending with 01 or 02. The 03+ matrix WG's are a different mastering which the US Atomic later duplicated.


    Kevin, I would rank them as:

    1) WG Atomic/US Atomic - 03 or higher matrixed mastering
    2) MFSL
    3) 25 8p
    4) Anthem - lacks "weight"

    The first 3 in my list all have individual tracks I prefer but I've ranked for album as a whole. 1 and 2 are really pretty close overall. With 1 being easily the best $ deal.
     
  24. TStewart422

    TStewart422 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    Darned Anthems and their hard-to-find nature. :realmad:
     
  25. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    The MFSL MP sounds a little flat to me. It lacks the sparkle the Atomic has. You can tell the MFSL has been messed with.
     
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