Pink Floyd Sax Remasters not remastered in Europe - my Empirical Analysis

Hi everyone,

I registered some time ago, but never posted on the forum before. I wanted to do it when I was able to make a really informative and interesting post or thread. I think this is the case, so this is my first post.

Some time ago I read the threads and posts regarding the virtual “inexistence” of the Pink Floyd 1992-1995 Doug Sax remastered CDs in european markets, apart from the Shine On box. Apparently, some of the proper remasters were released in the US in 1997 by Columbia and were never ever released in the EU, no matter that the artwork stated otherwise. Especially interesting was the case of Animals, which in Europe seems to be an old UK Harvest mastering (even in the “Oh by the Way” box) instead of the great-sounding Sax remaster released in 1997 in the US.

When I read those things, I was worried. Why?, because in my country (Chile) we get the European releases of the Pink Floyd CDs, so I wondered “what if I have the old-master discs, instead of the remastered ones?”, what if, back in the old ‘90s, I bought old-mastered Pink Floyd albums believing that they were the Sax Remasters (as it is stated in the artwork of ALL of them)?

Then I decided to do a little research, using as a main source of information my own collection, and working with the Pink Floyd CDs from “Piper” to AMLOR that I own and, supposedly, are Sax remasters.

Here is the list of the Sax remasters I have, with catalog numbers, label and place of release:

Piper at the Gates of Dawn:
7243 8 31261 2 5 – EMI – Europe

A Saucerful of Secrets:
7243 8 29751 2 0 – EMI – Europe
CDP 0777 7 46383 2 6 – USA - Capitol

Music from the film More:
7243 8 35631 2 8 – EMI – Europe
CDP 0777 7 46386 2 3 – USA – Capitol

Ummagumma:
7243 8 31213 2 7/8 – EMI – Europe
CDP 0777 7 46404 2 8 – Capitol - USA

Atom Heart Mother:
7243 8 31246 2 6 – EMI – Europe

Relics:
7243 8 35603 2 5 – EMI – Europe
CDP 7243 8 35603 2 5 – Capitol - USA

Meddle:
7243 8 29749 2 5 – EMI – Europe

Obscured by Clouds:
7243 8 35609 2 9 – EMI – Europe

Dark Side of the Moon
7243 8 29752 2 9 – EMI – Europe

Wish you Were Here:
7243 8 29750 2 1 – EMI – Europe
CK 68522 – Columbia – USA

Animals:
7243 8 29748 2 6 – EMI – Europe
CK 68521 – Columbia - USA

The Wall:
7243 8 31243 2 9 – EMI – Europe
C2K 68519 – Columbia - USA

The Final Cut:
7243 8 31242 2 0 – EMI – Europe
CK 68517 – Columbia – USA

A Momentary Lapse of Reason:
CDK 68581 – Columbia – USA


Before we get to the results, please keep some information in mind:

1.- This analysis refers ONLY to the market releases of the remastered CDs, that means independent CDs and NOT those in the US and/or EU editions of the Shine On Box.

2.- In cases when I didn’t have the EU or US counterpart of an album to compare, I used the EAC peak levels information available in the excellent database of Vernon Fitch’s website to make the comparisons. That is stated alongside the album’s data as “PFA”.

3.- All of the CDs here reviewed (except for the 1997 Columbia releases) clearly state in the artwork that they are “Digital Remasters” from 1992, 1994 or 1995 and credited to Doug Sax. All of the Columbia CDs here reviewed don’t state that in the artwork, but have the 1997 “Anniversary Edition” round sticker in the jewel case and have “1997” written in the copyright legal statement.


So, let’s see the results:

Piper at the Gates of Dawn:
Europe: 100 / 91.3 / 100 / 93.3 / 96.9 / 92.4 / 100 / 87.5 / 85.1 / 80.5 / 100
USA: 100 / 91.3 / 100 / 93.3 / 96.9 / 92.4 / 100 / 87.5 / 85.1 / 80.5 / 100 (PFA)
Peak levels are identical.

A Saucerful of Secrets:
Europe: 86.7 / 70.8 / 82.7 / 86.8 / 86.7 / 89.2 / 54.4
USA: 100 / 98.4 / 93.3 / 95.7 / 89.9 / 94.6 / 75.7
Peak levels are different. Also, “Set the Controls” have a really awkward cut/paste sound in the middle part in the European release. This is not present in the US release.

Music from the film More:
Europe: 68.7 / 100 / 62.4 / 100 / 86.0 / 72.1 / 74.1 / 99.9 / 100 / 97.2 / 73.6 / 97.2 / 100
USA: 68.7 / 100 / 62.4 / 100 / 86.0 / 72.1 / 74.1 / 99.9 / 100 / 97.2 / 73.6 / 97.2 / 100
Peak levels are identical.

Ummagumma:
Disc 1
Europe: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
USA: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100

Disc2
Europe: 90.1 / 65.6 / 70.7 / 86.9 / 100 / 86.8 / 80.1 / 99.4 / 100 / 83.6 / 100 / 54.9
USA: 90.1 / 65.6 / 70.7 / 86.9 / 100 / 86.8 / 80.1 / 99.4 / 100 / 83.6 / 100 / 54.9
Peak levels are identical in both discs.

Atom Heart Mother:
Europe: 100 / 74.2 / 100 / 100 / 100
USA: 100 / 74.2 / 100 / 100 / 100 (PFA)
Peak levels are identical.

Relics:
Europe: 89.3 / 92.2 / 84.1 / 100 / 75.6 / 96.2 / 87.4 / 62.7 / 100 / 100 / 74.5
USA: 89.3 / 92.2 / 84.1 / 100 / 75.6 / 96.2 / 87.4 / 62.7 / 100 / 100 / 74.5
Peak levels are identical.

Meddle:
Europe: 82.2 / 56.5 / 97.7 / 96.8 / 42.8 / 97.7
USA: 100 / 79.4 / 100 / 100 / 70.8 / 96.9 (PFA)
Peak levels are different.

Obscured by Clouds:
Europe: 84.6 / 94.7 / 86.5 / 100 / 99.3 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100
USA: 84.6 / 94.7 / 86.5 / 100.0 / 99.3 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 (PFA)
Peak levels are identical.

Dark Side of the Moon:
Europe: 87.8 / 94.7 / 100 / 97.2 / 100 / 99.1 / 97.7 / 93.9 / 97.7
USA: 67.9 / 69.1 / 76.9 / 75 / 96.8 / 69.6 / 89.3 / 75.7 / 82.5 (PFA)
Peak levels are different.

Wish you Were Here:
Europe: 97.7 / 97.7 / 97.7 / 97.7 / 97.7
USA: 100 / 100 / 99.9 / 88.8 / 92.2
Peak levels are different.

Animals:
Europe: 48.3 / 82.7 / 64.8 / 75.7 / 32.4
USA: 53.8 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 56.7
Peak levels are different.

The Wall:
Disc 1
Europe: 97.2 / 87.2 / 95.3 / 97.2 / 93.6 / 93.8 / 47.9 / 57.6 / 97.2 / 97.2 / 93.5 / 97.2 / 26.9
USA: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 54.4 / 62.0 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 30.6

Disc 2
Europe: 95.0 / 65.9 / 61.9 / 48.8 / 90.2 / 95.4 / 78.8 / 97.2 / 97.2 / 97.2 / 18.7 / 85.7 / 11.5
USA: 100 / 75.6 / 69.7 / 53.8 / 100 / 100 / 84.2 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 19.4 / 100 / 17.0
Peak levels are different in both discs. European discs match the Italian release, although they have UK artwork.

The Final Cut:
Europe: 75.6 / 75.7 / 21.8 / 90.3 / 76.4 / 55.1 / 70.3 / 74.8 / 29.6 / 72.4 / 91.2 / 66.8
USA: 88.4 / 93.0 / 25.6 / 100.0 / 99.2 / 84.8 / 83.0 / 100.0 / 36.4 / 87.1 / 97.0 / 86.5
Peak levels are different.

A Momentary Lapse of Reason:
Europe: 64.1 / 100 / 88.8 / 85.2 / 83.1 / 97.6 / 39.9 / 97.5 / 38.8 / 90.9 (PFA)
USA: 72.7 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 62.7 / 100 / 55.9 / 100
Peak levels are different. However, there is no record of a “1994 remaster” in the European catalog of Vernon’s site, so I used the edition that was being sold at the same time as the 1997 Columbia issue to compare.

Conclusions.
The first conclusion I got from my analysis is that I have to replace my EMI “Meddle” with a Capitol CD . On the other hand, I have the Columbia 1997 releases so all I have to do is get rid of some of the bad sounding “un-remastered” EMI releases from WYWH to TFC. I got rid of the European Animals (that sounded REALLY bad ) and Wish you Were Here (bad sound, really really bad sound ), and am looking forward to get rid of the other European versions.

However, the main conclusion is not that. As we can see from the results, the following albums have different peak levels in EU and US: Saucerful of Secrets, Meddle, DSOTM, WYWH, Animals, The Wall, TFC and AMLOR. On the other hand, Piper, More, Ummagumma, AHM, Relics and OBC have the same peak levels in the US and the EU.

After doing some comparisons in Vernon’s site, and after reading some useful posts in this forum, I concluded that the European “remastered” release of Animals is actually an old UK Harvest mastering, WYWH is a level shifted old UK mastering, and something similar happens with Saucerful, Meddle, TFC, AMLOR and The Wall.

Now, some facts: Pink Floyd catalogue was licensed (until 2000) to 2 different companies in the USA: Capitol Records had the first half (Piper to Dark Side) and Columbia Records had the second half (WYWH to PULSE). In Europe, the entire Floyd catalogue was licensed to EMI. Doug Sax made some remasters in 1992 for the Shine On Box, and in 1994-1995 he remastered the rest of the catalogue. The first half (Piper to DSOTM) of these remasters were issued in the US by Capitol in 1994-1995 as independent CDs. The second half of the remasters (WYWH to AMLOR) were held back by Columbia until 1997. There was no 1997 remastering. The albums released in 1997 by Columbia are the Sax remasters from 1992-1995. In Europe, the whole “remastered” catalogue was issued between 1994 and 1996. However, as we’ve seen, only some of the albums released in Europe were real Sax remasters, and the majority were old masters in a new packaging.

So, the real Sax remasters of WYWH, Animals, TW, TFC and AMLOR weren’t released as independent CDs, in any place of Earth, until 1997. The real Sax remasters of Saucerful, Meddle and DSOTM were released as independent CDs only in the USA by Capitol in 1993-1994. And the real Sax remasters of the rest of the catalogue were released in 1993-1996 in the US and the EU by Capitol and EMI respectively.

It seems that all the albums that were in hands of Columbia in the US were NOT released as Sax remasters by EMI outside the US. Never. They still haven’t. And the same happened to the Sax remastered Capitol albums present in the Shine On box. What happened? I don’t really know. I can only guess. Probably some problems between labels, probably Columbia had the power to retain the remasters of their half of the catalogue and prevent EMI from releasing them worldwide, perhaps the remasters of the Capitol albums present on the Shine On box were only allowed to be released in the US and not by EMI. Or perhaps EMI just didn’t care about the remasters. Perhaps they chose to release the old mastered CDs (with a new artwork full of lies, by the way) than to pay somebody the rights for the remasters. Who knows what happened back in the early ‘90s?

I don’t. All I can say is this, if you want the REAL Sax remasters, you have the following choices:

- Get the US Capitol 1994-1995/Columbia 1997 releases. The Capitol 2000 releases are also good. They have the same remastering of the 1997 Columbia releases. There was NO new mastering in 2000. Only the Columbia contract ended and the rights went back to Capitol, and they re-released the albums under their label and with the Sax remastering. This doesn’t apply to the 2005 AMLOR, that’s another story.

- If you are not in the USA, you can be sure that the European releases of Piper, More, Ummagumma, Relics, AHM and OBC are the real Sax remasters. For the other albums, you can try to get a Shine On box (Sax mastering, a little level shifted though, but fine) or import the US or Japanese releases of the independent CDs. Avoid, at any extent, European releases of the other CDs or the "Oh By the Way" box (it contains the European pressings, so you’ll get a 1980’s Animals in a nice 2007’s box ).

That’s it. I hope this helps someone (maybe a Sax fan trying to get all of the the “Sax Floyd”), and really hope that this thread can be of good use in this forum. I did all this work some time ago for myself, to be clear of what CDs I should look for and what CDs I had to get rid of, and now I wanted to share my results and conclusions.

Cheers!!

PS. Sorry if my English is not perfect. Not my native language.

 

Nice post, Artreidis. I hope your next one does not take another 3 years.

Good luck in tracking down the missing Sax remasters.

 

Excellent detective work now have to get some US Sax discs.

 

Not only your English is perfect, but you SO belong here!

¡Bienvenido!

 

Thanks for your extensive post, very informative.

I guess it shows that mastering preferences can be very different. That early UK Harvest mastering of "Animals" is actually my preferred CD version. I know, it sounds a little dark/muddy, but it matches the tonality of the original UK vinyl almost perfectly (the vinyl has the same dark sound). I don't like the remaster of "Animals" by Doug Sax, it has a really cold and sterile sound to me.

I was actually pleasantly surprised that I did get my favorite mastering of "Animals" in my "Oh by the way" box set.

Also, "The Wall" as the European remastered release (either in the "Oh by the way" box or as a standalone 2-CD release) is definitely a different mastering than the old Harvest mastering, and it is actually my preferred CD mastering for that album.

You are right about "Meddle" being based on the old Harvest mastering, just increased levels. Still, to me the old Harvest mastering has the most pleasant sound on CD.

One case where I really like the US Doug Sax remaster better than the (no-noised) European CD masrtering is "A Saucerful of Secrets".

 

Thanks for the warm welcome, everyone

Of course, it's a matter of personal tastes. My post was more about finding the "correct" Sax remasters, for someone who wants to, than anything else, and to try to clarify the issue of the European "remasters", being sold as that by EMI, that are not what they say they are. I guess that is what upsets me more, EMI selling an old mastering as a "remaster".

I know some people don't like them, and others prefer them to the old UK-US CD pressings. I like most of the Sax remasters, especially Saucerful and the remaster of Animals. I think Animals is an album that deserves a more "edgy" and powerful sound, and, to me, it just doesn't sound right in a muddy and dark mastering.

Then again, we're all different, so we have different tastes

I hope so , don't know exactly why I haven't posted before, but here I am, better late than never!!

 

Perfect reply, thanks. Cool with me.

You might want to recheck your conclusions for "The Wall", though. i am not sure about whether the existing European remaster (which doesn't run in sync with the old Harvest mastering) is maybe somehow related to the US remastering (Doug Sax). The peak levels are different for sure.

I really like how that European "The Wall" remaster sounds.

 

Outstanding post... Very very interesting and somehow not surprising

 

You are right. The Wall and DSOTM are far more problematic, I guess, than what it seems. I tried to simplify it on my analysis, but it's really more complicated.

My european copy of The Wall, allegedly a 1992 remaster, matches exactly with the Italian edition according to Vernon's database (http://www.pinkfloydarchives.com/DItCDPF.htm#Wall94). The EU release is different in the peak level of only 1 track ("Goodbye cruel world"), which is higher in the EU disc. This includes the Netherlands. However, the label on the discs says "made in Holland" and the matrix says "UDEN". I don't know if this is a mistake on the database or not, but it's confusing. So, there seems to be differences even inside Europe on the remasters. Little differences, but differences.

Also, the European remaster sounds really different than the US remaster. I like them both, but they sound very different to me that I really doubt they are the same mastering. It could be Sax mastering, after a serious level shifting, or it could be a remastering not made by Sax, or it could be a heavily modified old Harvest master. I don't know. As there is no prior Harvest mastering that match it, I can't say for sure that this is an old mastering disguised as a remaster.

However, if this is a Sax remaster that went level shifted, it really doesn't make much sense to me. This would be the only Sax remaster to be modified before release in Europe. All the Sax remasters released in Europe are equal than their US counterparts, so why not "The Wall"?

My guess is: this is a modified old master of The Wall. Maybe they heavily level shifted it, song by song, cleaned the noise, I don't know. It would be strange, for me, that this is Sax remaster considering it sounds so different than the US Sax remaster and that the other remasters released in Europe aren't different from their US counterparts. However, there is a reasonable doubt on my conclusion because there isn't a Harvest old master to match with this "remaster", so I can't assure it in a 100%, because I have no proof

cheers!

 

The European remaster of "The Wall" does not stay in sync with the old Harvest mastering, so those to definitely cannot be related in any way, I don't think.

Interesting to know that the EU remaster sounds a lot different to the US remaster.

In my opinion, most Pink Floyd CD's at least sound decent. There are only a few of which I think they sound quite bad, like some of the no-noised ones (Saucerful of Secrets) and the "too loud and harsh" (in my opinion) Dark Side of the Moon remaster.

 

I've got a release of DSOTM here that matches your European catalog number with "Made in the EU. Digital remasters 1992" printed on the disc's label and it has the US peak levels. Bought here (in Australia) about two years ago.

 

I have The Wall (7243 8 31243 2 9 – EMI – Europe, year 1994) and mastering is credited to Doug Sax and it says printed in U.K so i have the good version if i read your post correctly?

Also another question: For someone that owns the Doug Sax remasters, is there any need to upgrade?

 

Generally the Doug Sax remasters sound fine, but IMO there are better sounding versions out there for most PF albums. Do a search, there are a lot of threads on this subject. Just don't expect any consensus...

 

According to my conclusions, no. But, there is a reasonable doubt now that it could be the Sax remaster with different levels than the US version. When it comes to The Wall, I can't be 100% sure with the European release, but I'd like to solve the mystery.

It depends. Sax remasters were the last major remastering of the PF catalog. With the exceptions of Piper (2007), DSOTM (2003), The Final Cut (2004) and AMLOR (2005), there are no new remasterings. And, compared to those new masterings, Sax are, IMHO, better (with the exception of the DSOTM 5.1 layer, of course).

However, as Sander said, there are better sounding versions for most of the PF catalog (Japanese 1st or 2nd pressings, or some MFSL editions for example). The problem is that some of them are really expensive and hard to find. Sax remasters, on the other hand, are easier to find and usually are at a reasonable price (good price/quality relation). Other pressings at similar prices tend to be of inferior quality, IMO, with some very honorable exceptions, of course, mainly some early US and German pressings. So, if you have the true Sax remasters and they sound fine for your ears, then you don't need to upgrade anything.

It's a matter of tastes, anyways

Oh, Australian releases... I've never had one of them (really would like to!!), but I know they can be confusing when it comes to masterings.

No-noised Saucerful was totally awful, true.

It seems The Wall is a bit of a mystery. To my ears both US and EU remasters sound really different (well, maybe this is just a personal thing, I don't know, ears can be very subjective). Peak levels are also different. But if it really doesn't match any old Harvest mastering... a tweaked Sax remaster perhaps, then?

Does it match the US remaster? I don't know how to compare that, that's why I rely mainly in peak levels. Can you compare them? If you can't, could you tell me how to do it? Given I have both pressings, I could do it during next week, so we could try to solve this mystery.

Any help will be welcome. Cheers

 

In my opinion, you have the best sounding CD version of this album.

 

Man, this **** is confusing. It makes you wonder why EMI hasn't fixed this issue in the 15+ years these CDs have been out on the market. At least now we have a nice guide to help us out. Thank you so much for this!

Of the 1990's Pink Floyd discs, I have a Meddle, WYWH, Animals, and The Wall. All of them were printed in Australia, which I beleive used the same masterings as the European ones. WYWH and Animals sound like crap, while Meddle and The Wall sound phenomenal. I was thinking about selling the crap ones off and getting the Sax discs off eBay, but I might keep Animals, if it's apparantly the closest to the original vinyl.

Oh, and I also love the CD layer of the SACD Dark Side. It's the first version of the album I ever heard. aside from the compression on the Money solos, it's one of the best sounding CDs I have.

 

I agree, I remember that back in the early 90's the release of the Pink Floyd remasters was quite a high profile reissue campaign. It's puzzling how and why EMI could have made such a mess of the masterings while getting the artwork right. It's even more puzzling why EMI didn't bother to fix the mastering issues in the subsequent years. They could have issued secret remasters or, if there were legal reasons preventing them from using the remasters made by Doug Sax, at the very least they should have changed the mastering credits. Certainly EMI must have received some complaints. Just imagine if something like this would have happened with the recent John Lennon remasters (POB still the 80's no-noised version) or, gasp!, the Beatles remasters...

 

So, to help me out, if I've got all the EU individual remastered CDs, The "Shine On" Box, and the "Oh By The Way" box, which CDs contain the Sax remasters?

podman

 

When I did a spectral analysis of all the known Wall masterings the US Sax version was very similar, but not identical to, the current Euro version. Maybe a dB off in spots, I can't remember exactly. Enough of a difference to definitely be audible. However, both were far more similar the each other then they were to the Early Japan and Euro versions.

My guess is that the Euro is a tweaked version of the Sax remaster.

 

These are the same as the original 80's West German EMI Mastering
Also found on the early Japan Toshiba (TO) pressings
The last three tracks are level-shifted, but a spectral analysis shows they are the same EQ

These are the same peaks as the Sax re-master

This:
34.4 - 92.4 - 92.0 - 93.0 - 92.7 - 100 - 84.3 - 100 - 100 - 100
Is the James Guthrie re-mastering which was done in 2003 for the SACD
That should also be the same as the current Euro EMI Italy pressings, and the Oh by the Way boxset.

 

My spectrum analysis shows that the above are level shifted versions of the original 80's West German EMI masterings.

Wish You Were Here is NOT the same as the 80's US Columbia or Japan CBS with all five tracks at 100%.

This is digitally identical to the original 80's West German EMI mastering.

These are the same as the Sax re-master.

The current in-print Euro, Japan, US, and Oh by the Way should be the James Guthrie re-master from 2004. This has the bonus track, and the peaks are:
100 - 100 - 59.2 - 100 - 99.9 - 100 - 100 - 100 - 100 - 80.0 - 100 - 99.9 - 88.1

 

Yes, it is

 

Shine On is all Doug Sax, but with different peak levels then the regular discs, and different peaks for Euro Shine On vs US Shine On. Nobody knows why.

Oh by the Way is the same in all markets, and is Doug Sax, except for:

James Guthrie:
Piper at the Gates of Dawn
The Dark Side of the Moon
The Final Cut

Unknown, but maybe tweaked Doug Sax:
The Wall

80's EMI Mastering:
A Saucerful of Secrets
Meddle
Wish You Were Here
Animals

This mirrors the current Euro individual releases.

Again, nobody knows why, or if EMI even knows what they're pressing anymore.

 

There is actually a whole verse missing.

Your English is better then most Americans I converse with online!

 

How about "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" (or was it "The Division Bell"?), that has a completely new remastering in the "Oh by the Way" box set?