I haven't used the meter in question since I have others that do similar things, plus it doesn't measure a lot of things that have an impact on the sound. Actually, you touch on that aspect when you mention EQ. The problem with raw numbers such as peak to avg, etc., is that they don't give you any indication of the frequencies, tyhe attack,release or look-ahead settings of the compression used, the response time of the equipment used, etc. All of these (and several others) impact the final sound file that gets written to CD.
Well clearly I'm in the dark here, there's a 1993 remastering? and a 2003? I thought they remastered the catalog only once (Mothership excluded).
I thought the same. By the way, I have the individual Marino/Page remasters (no boxed set). Are there different masterings (even minor changes) of this? If so, what specifically has been done since their initial release (early 90s) and how would I be able to tell which mastering I have?
Officially, the only time George Marino was known to have changed his initial May 1990 Led Zeppelin remastering was in 1993 when the individual albums were "re-assembled" for the Complete Studio Recordings (CSR) box set. Forum member Zal (Schreiber) worked on these and has discussed the work done in a couple of other threads. Zal mentioned working on a couple of tracks only that needed to be remastered to better match hiss levels during track transitions. However, as you can see from the numbers I posted above and in post 399, there is a significant difference between the 1990 crop circle and 1993 versions of the one track I compared, Custard Pie. I've seen this with other tracks as well. I've seen postings on other forums and discussions in various forums here discussing differences between the 1993 CSS box (released as individual albums in 1994) and mini-LP versions that started showing up around 2003. I bought a complete set of these in 2005 and comparisons I've done among my crop circle boxes, the CSR and the mini-LPs showed some differences in certain tracks. Then in a thread on the 2008 SHM-CD box, some folks who checked those found that, even though the Japanese web site said they were sourced from the "1994 remasters" (except for the 2007 remix of The Song Remains the Same), their levels matched the 2003 mini-LPs, except for Coda, which seemed to be a bit-for-bit copy of the 1994 version. All this gets into the definition of a "remaster." Technically speaking, any time a CD master is prepared it is a different "mastering" but many tend to discuss masters now in terms of a mastering engineer going back to the analog source tapes, doing a new transfer, then applying EQ, level, compression, noise reduction, etc. These various versions of the Led Zeppelin canon seem to be a case of someone taking the original Marino remasters and running some tracks through a peak limiter while boosting them. These are still credited to George Marino and sometimes Jimmy Page or Marino and Page. However, they always seem to line up digitally with the original crop circle remasters, meaning they came from the same digital transfer. The same goes for the Mothership compilation. John Davis mentioned on this forum that due to time constraints he was given an old flat digital transfer as a source.
Very cool, Stefan, thanks for explaining that with such detail and clarity. One question: Out of all the individual Marino/Page releases, have there been any changes since their initial 1994 (?) release, even by means of peak limiting? Or is a Houses Of the Holy someone bought in 1994 the same (100% digitally identical) as a Houses Of The Holy one could buy today?
You know as I was writing the previous message it occurred to me that one reason for the different fade outs on the remastered versions of the LZ albums may be that each album was re-compiled/re-assembled from the individual tracks George Marino mastered with Jimmy Page sitting in back in 1990 (I've never read whether the tracks left off the first set and released as a second crop circle box in 1993 were mastered at the same time or again. Given Zal Schreiber's discussions on here of their just doing a couple oif tracks in 1993, it seems likely the whole canon was done in 1990). Since Page was putting the tracks in a new sequence for the crop circle boxes, he may have decided on different fades. Obviously hiss levels in fade outs was a factor (where some of us might agree with that or not), but it may have been at least partly a creative decision. For example, we know that the song All My Love on ITTOD was longer since the alternate mix with an extended ending has been talked about positively by fans for years now. Somewhere Page or someone decided to fade out early. So when it came time to re-compile the albums, they simply took the remastered tracks and put them back in the original order. At that point, they discovered that a couple of the transitions were really jarring so they sent the tracks back to Marino for more work.
Definitely not digitally identical. I haven't done a comparison of HOTH myself, but I recall seeing a comparison posted once on Hydrogenaudio where level differences showed up for some tracks.
Man, doing CDs, then redoing them for compilations, then putting those versions out, this is getting absurd. What the hell does one buy?
It happens all the time. Part of it is getting some people to rebuy the same music over and over. Part of it is presenting the music to new generations of fans. I recall an interview with Jimmy Page around the time of the Mothership release in which he basically said that Mothership was not intended for existing fans but for new fans wanting to get into the band. As has been mentioned in this thread, these CDs can be had for a few bucks. The thing to remember as well is that any LZ releases from 1990 on are all variations on the same George Marino remasters. The ones with the least compression are the crop circle sets. The more recent the release, the more the compression.
Are you talking about a standard USA 1993 release vs. a standard USA release that one can buy today or vs. one of the various Japanese releases that have come out in the last decade?
I listened to Coda, ITTOD and III from the Complete Studio Recordings box tonight. These are the same as the individual currently available remasters, right? I got this box a few months ago but never listened to it. Sounds brighter than I would prefer, but mostly enjoyable.
This is exactly what I would like to know... US release from '93,'94 vs US release you can buy today. If I get a chance today, I'll scour the hydrogenaudio forums and try to find what Stefan was citing yesterday.
I haven't checked all the tracks, but those I did check were louder on the 1993 box. For instance, the Replaygain figures I posted for Custard Pie in post 399 show it to be 2.8dB louder in 1993 (it takes a reduction of 7.3dB to reach RG levels, whereas the 1990 version only needed 4.1dB). The 2003 version was slightly louder. By the way, this is also a good example of why comparing peak levels can lead to the wrong conclusions. Notice that the 1986, 1990 and 2003 versions all peak at the same level 0.999969, but vary in average level by as much as 5.91dB (a 6dB increase in level is perceived as doubling the volume level!).
As I wrote last message, comparing peak levels can be very misleading. If the peak levels vary among all the tracks on a given CD and then identical numbers and variations show up when another pressing of the same title is analysed, chances are very good that it's from the same master, but if not, then all bets are off. The problem is greater if there's a predominent peak level for all tracks, for instance 99.9% for all. This simply means a peak limiter was set to brickwall at 99.9%. It gives no indication of how much the signal was boosted on the input, the look-ahead, attack or release values for the limiter, etc. Two versions of a CD could conceivably have exactly the same peak value but come from significantly different sounding masters.
Below are the replay gain “track values” for Led Zeppelin - II (The Mothership numbers look painful) Code: Led Zeppelin - II Compact Disc Replay Gain track values # 1986 90/93 1993 2008 M'ship '86-'08 1. -0.71 -3.75 -4.58 -5.60 -8.12 4.89 Whole Lotta Love 2. -0.99 n/a -4.08 -5.09 4.10 What Is And What Should Never Be 3. 0.35 -3.78* -4.20 -5.20 5.55 The Lemon Song 4. 1.07 n/a -3.38 -4.36 5.43 Thank You 5. -1.25 -4.16 -5.77 -6.77 -9.30 5.52 Heartbreaker 6. -1.41 -6.71* -7.12 -8.07 6.66 Livin' Lovin' Maid (She's A Woman) 7. 0.36 -4.32 -5.74 -6.73 -8.97 7.09 Ramble On 8. 1.90 -1.17* -2.85 -3.85 5.75 Moby Dick 9. 0.16 -5.69* -5.84 -6.86 7.02 Bring It On Home 1986 - Atlantic 1st issue 90/93 - Remasters & Boxed Set 2 (Crop Circle Box Sets) 1993 - Complete Studio Recordings 2008 - Japan issue: 40th Anniversary, The Definitive Box Set (SHM-12CD) 2007 - Mothership 1990 Led Zeppelin Remasters (Crop Circle 2 disc ed.) Whole Lotta Love Heartbreaker Ramble On *1993 Led Zeppelin Boxed Set 2 The Lemon Song Livin' Lovin' Maid (She's A Woman) Moby Dick Bring It On Home
Thanks. I tried to find the listings on Hydrogenaudio this morning but they're either gone or I couldn't find them. They listed all the albums. Ironically, while those Mothership numbers are indeed painful looking, the tracks actually sound a bit better than the remaster versions in terms of tonality.
Just ordered a Barry Diament mastered "Houses Of The Holy". I'm gonna be interested in hearing this one against the George Marino remaster. ELP redux!
I think you'll like it. Some of the original LZ CDs don't sound that great to me when compared to good vinyl pressings but HOTH is one where Barry truly hit it right out of the ball park! It's about as close as I've heard any digital Led Zeppelin get to vinyl.
Do you ever post anything with out being nasty? Ok so the guy may be wrong but was there really a need to state he is "silly" then sheesh at him like he's a piece of garbage? Next time just state the facts and spare us the distasteful attitude.
