Ever Thought of Hanging Magnepans?

If you wanted SMGa's for surrounds, why not figure out where you'd put them on the floor behind you, and just invert that position hanging from the ceiling, and save the floorspace, if you need it. I know it might be goofy, but if a wide couch would get in the way, it might be worth a shot.

 

My buddy has thought about doing this for years. He want to try some super strong mono filament nylon for a invisible levatation effect!

 

Magnepan makes a panel designed for wall mounting? (MMGW) http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMGW Really cheap for a set of panel speakers... They are slightly curved to widen the sound field instead of flat like the floor standing models.

 

Yeah, but I think any magnepan not 3 feet away from a wall is not going to sound as good as it should. I am working on my basement listening room, so I will be trying some really interesting things soon. I'll keep you all posted...

 

You couldn't walk underneath them could you ? It might be easier to vacuum, but that's the only advantage I could think of...

 

If you have a really wide couch, would you want to have the surrounds behind you on the floor? Wouldn't the back of the couch absorb some of the mids before they get to your ears? I think it's going to be really interesting to play around with these when I get this room done.

I'm also trying to get a handle on the dispersion pattern of the sound coming out of a Magnepan. One thing I could never figure out is wouldn't the bulk of, especially the higher the frequency because of the narrower air-wave,the out of phase portion of the sound that comes out the back of a dipolar speaker like a Maggie, Martin Logan, Def Tech,or Mirage, just bounce of the wall and go right back into the driver it came out of? Does this help the driver? In the case of Def Tech & Mirage, wouldn't the really high frequency coming out of the tweeter go right back into it if the speakers had little or no toe in? Is this why many of the Maggie enthusiasts preach the "as far as part as you can, but no closer the three feet from the back wall and the side walls" idea? Inquiring minds want to know Save me Barry D. and Lee S.

 

Which is why I'm looking for a second Hafler XL600 so I can bridge them... Hey wait, you're making fun of me!

Go get your own forum if your not going to help.

 

Hi discreplayboss,

It will be interesting to hear of your experiments as you set up your room. By all means, try things and draw your own conclusions about the results.

My own feelings about hanging Maggies (or any other speaker):
The plus: Could offer benefits for folks well over 7 feet tall.
The minuses: Suspending the speakers means they'll "swing" which will harm definition at all frequencies. One alternative would be to have them firmly attached to the ceiling so they can't swing but such mounting would bring any structural vibrations right to the speaker/crossover. It also prevents the use of a vibration isolation bass.

A few things here. First, the treble radiation of Maggies is not as "narrow" as you might think and certainly not like many quasi-omni monopoles (i.e. box speakers). Maggie treble actually has a fairly broad dispersion pattern.

Now, as to the backwave and proximity to the wall, in my experience, what is true for Maggies here is just as true for 99% of the other speakers I've ever heard, regardless of whether they are planar dipoles like Maggies or box type, quasi-omni monopoles or whether they are full omnis, etc.

From the listening position, we hear the direct sound from each speaker, followed by reflected sounds. The first reflected sound is going to be from the surface nearest the loudspeakers. If the sound from the reflection arrives at the listener's ears closely behind the direct sound from the speakers, it will "blend" with the direct sound, causing a "smear" in time. Short transient sounds will appear to be stretched out in time and what should be a "sharp" sonic edge will get rounded.

The sonic results will be fine detail will be obscured, as will spatial cues. Recorded depth in the soundstage will be compressed into a line of images strung between the loudspeakers. Treble sounds will tend to get a bit harsh and perhaps brighter (the latter depending on the material of the reflecting surface).

So, it isn't an issue of sound from say, the wall hitting the speaker again (though this can happen, resulting not in any benefits but an increase in intermodulation distortion at the drivers), it is an issue of the reflected sound arriving at the listener's ears too close in time behind the direct sound from the speakers.

Moving the speakers away from this reflecting surface, increases the time between the arrival of the direct sound from the speakers and the arrival of the reflected sound from the surface. Every foot away from the wall will add about 2 milliseconds between the direct sounds' arrival and the arrival of the reflected sound. (Sound travels through air approximately 1 foot per millisecond. Moving the speaker another foot from the wall adds about a millisecond for the sound to reach the wall from the back of the speaker and another millisecond for it to travel back toward the listener after the bounce.)

Up to a point, as we increase the delay between the direct sound and the reflected sound, we increase the definition of the direct sound. (If the delay was too long, we would start to hear two discreet "events", like an echo.)
My experience has been a delay of approximately 10 or 12 milliseconds (i.e. speakers 5 or 6 feet from the wall behind them) can be very successful, avoiding the smear of too short a delay and the echo of too long a delay.

All of this can be helped to a degree with proper acoustic treatment in the listening room. But this should not be taken to mean a well treated room allows speakers to be placed close to the walls. My general rule of thumb for most rooms is "every foot from the wall adds $1000 to the sound".

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I'll have to agree with Steve and oddly, not with Barry on this one. The Magnepans in general do require more power than is ever possible to deliver to them to get them to sound anything like a good dynamic driver. Obviously, many Maggie fans will find that a good thing, but I feel that they are throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Yeah, they are boxless and so you don't have box colorations, yet many dynamic speakers have achived a nearly boxless sound, while others use the box to other advantages.

To directly answer your two main questions, it has been thought of many times by others to hang many speakers and yes, panel speakers look cool when suspended. It has a few problems though. One is that you'll need to get speaker wire to the panel, so monofiliment isn't an option as far as hiding that as there are no invisble speaker wires AFAIAA (oh wait, you could use Transpaent Cables ;-). It also increases the length of the wire, assuming that it will also be attached from the ceiling and that the amplifiers will not be ceiling mounted as well. That further challenges the amplifiers to drive an increasingly difficult load as there is greater signal loss. The speaker is also free to swing unless it is also attached at the floor by other wires. As Barry described, that is not good for sound. It could be reduced by having four, very tight wires but that would likely put too much stress on the speaker frame. An alternative would be mounting directly to the ceiling with brackets, just as the speakers would rest on the floor stands, but firmly attached to the ceiling. This can be done either rigidly or with the use or elastomers for "vibration isolation", although isolation has some obvious similarities to the free hanging method, so by deduction, it actually has some of the same ill effects as would free hanging. You still have the problem of the increased length of speaker wire when mounting to the ceiling using brackets. Many Maggie owners (and past owners) have discovered the benefits of increased rigidity and coupling of the panels by adding to the frames custom stands. These are basically trusses that reinforce the frame and create a much more stable base for the drivers so as to avoid the swaying back and forth action and its sonic penalties. Many also use the base as an anchor for locating an improved crossover network. So in my opinion, it's not worth the hassle.

Now, to answer the second question about the reflections, which I think that Barry misunderstood, but you can correct me if it is I than am misinterpreting your question. In any case, the answer contains some useful information for planer speaker owners. The planar speaker is a perfect dipole, and while I completely disagree about the dispersion properties of a panel vs a dome (and this is easily confirmed by measurement), it is clear that the ambience effect created by the lack of any enclosure is interesting to try and harness. It does often not work as you would hope though. It has as many problems as it solves (well, OK, it has more problems, but the anticipated benefit is worth exploring). Yes, the position of planar speakers relative to walls and corners is very important. Yes, there is a blocking effect produced by the speaker, really of any type, but yes the effect of a panel is unique. In a panel speaker, the surface area is much larger and so much more of the rear wave is blocked by the panel and worse, not all of that wave is blocked. It is variable by frequency as some wil pass through the panel and in doing so, the panel is distorted by the pressure difference between the rear wall and the speaker. So, yeah, you want to avoid having the rear of the speaker near a wall. You also want to place some absorbtive material there to prevent the speaker from absorbing the wave and being displaced by it. Diffusive panels can be used to great effect (and often at great expense) to keep the high frequencies retained and the ambient reflections stronger in an otherwise deadened room. It's a tough nut to crack and further makes the speakers that seem tlike a deal on the surface, much more expensive and difficult to effectively integrate into a system and room. It can work in larger rooms and with powerful amplifiers but it's really not something that I'd suggest. Magnepan has used a load of very powerful Bryston amplifiers in its most recent theater demonstration rooms.
-Bill

 

As a long-time Maggie owner, I understand the whole low efficient and power hungry aspect of this type of design. What I'm trying to get my head around is how can I use my two pair of SMGa's for surrounds in a 7.1 system and still having room for a really nice wide couch, or just for arguments sake, say three rows of theater seats. I'll lucky enough to be able to take the ideas I have, as well as the ones you fine folks share on here, and try them out before I do anything permanent.

 

check out the photo tour here. images 5 and 7 show them, as do a few others:

http://www.corporaterocksucks.com/

52.5 records in charleston,sc has some magnepans flying from the ceiling. sound is pretty good. imaging is another story, (or 2 higher, sorry couldn't resist)

 

Seriously, I'd get rid of em and get the mmgw's. its a great solution to your problem. Then you don't have to try and make custom brackets, etc...

 

Hi Bill,

I understood the question but responded to what I see the real issues would be with placement close to the wall behind the speakers.

I do not believe the energy of the treble reflection coming back from the wall (even with the speakers parallel and only an inch away, which I doubt any Maggie customer would do) pales next to the amount of energy coming from the driver itself. If anything - and this would much more likely be an issue in the bass - there would be an increase in intermodulation distortion on the surface of the drivers.

Still, the larger, much more audible issue, in my view, would be the time smear caused by the first reflection following the direct sound so closely.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Duplicate post, deleted.

 

Sorry, I meant to say I believe (as in "do believe") the energy of the reflection pales next to the amount of energy coming from the driver.

In other words, that reflection is going to have negligible impact on the driver but it will have considerable impact on the audio. So my response addressed what would have a significant impact rather than what, in my view, would not.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

That's where it is, and yet it is a global distortion of significant amplitude. I've owned a few ribbon driver equipped speakers (Magnepan, Final, and Apogee being the "full range" models) and all reflections from the rear of the driver must be absorbed or deflected. Mid and especially midbass frequencies get very muddy and they also tend to distort the highs from the ribbons as they modulate the panel, again at a delayed time, creating time distortion as well. They are just not suitable for close to boundry use. Even dynamic speakers which are considered to be full range, feature closed back midrange and HF drivers.
-Bill

 

I agree that the MMGw's would simplify the set-up quite a bit, and I think the would be good if you were more concerned with movies over music. I have a rather large Music DVD, DVD-A & SACD collection, and I'm looking forward to more Blu-Ray releases like the Neil Young set that just came out. I really want to focus this system to playback music in surround sound, and theoretically you'd want to have 7 of the same speakers surrounding you in a circle. Now, I'd rather spend more money on my mains, because I'm mostly interested in listening to discreet 5.1 music recordings in surround and 2-ch cd's in stereo as opposed to letting a processor take 2 channels and make them into 5.1 or 7.1, so I'm willing to make some compromises in that department. I also already have 2 pair of SMGa's to use. The SMGa's will have a much lower end and handle more juice then MMGw's, thus matching up better with the 1.6qr's I have for mains.

 

Which is why I came up with the idea of mounting them from the ceiling. I probably should be using the word mound instead of hang. I was gcoing to fabricate some Mye type stands that will extend up through the drop ceiling and bold directly into the joists above.

 

Absolutely.

And you want the tubiest and most powerful amps.

Try VTL if it fits your needs.

 

Too further clarify, I have two goals I am trying to accomplish with mounting the speakers from the ceiling, inverse from how they'd be on the floor- 1. I can increase the distance from the speakers to the where I'll be sitting, thus matching them closer to the distance the main and the center channel will be. 2. I'll hear more of the direct sound vs. the back of the large couch in the room absorbing it.

 

Hi Bill,

What you are describing is the result of having that first reflection close to the direct sound. It is, more than anything else, a time domain distortion. This is not the result of the reflection returning to the driver.... unless the playback volume is enough to damage the speakers and listener.

I wholly agree they should not be placed close to boundaries. I would say the same thing about most quasi-omni monopoles (box speakers) too. As you know, the bass in box speakers is omnidirectional, so you get the same sort of interaction, perhaps to a greater degree because of the more localized pressure changes relative to the large area/smaller pressure changes of a planar.

That's why I always say "Every foot from the wall adds $1000 to the sound."

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

Hi discreplayboss,

Understood.
Keep in mind however, that aside from the issues I mentioned earlier (i.e. not being able to provide proper isolation), this will also put the sounds to the rear, above you, where the sounds from the front will be at the listening level.

Whether the resulting spatial discontinuity is a negative or not, will be a personal call.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

 

I've read this thread with interest as in my dreams I would love to have an all Maggie HT system.

One point I'd like to make is that the back surrounds don't reproduce all that much music, more ambiance and effects than anything. I have yet to listen to a SCAD or movie where the surround channels are all that 'active' as compared to the front and center speakers. So, how much effect will hanging a pair of Maggies close to the wall have on the overall sound?

BTW, for hanging the speakers a modified plan of this stand is one I have been thinking of. http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/green_lantern/

 

You'd probably want to use 10 gauge house wiring routed up through the walls with recepticles for connecting them to the Maggies.