is there a good current CD of miles davis "kind of blue"?

Was just going to ask about the MasterSound SBM gold CK 64403 as it is the only CD I own of KOB. How does it rate amongst the other CD releases of this title?

 

So it is different from the 2000 or so Sony KOB I have?

I thought the Japanese SACDs had the same mastering with respect to the overlapping titles in US Sony SACDs, no?

 

The mastering was done in 2006, so it's not the same as any earlier mastering.

 

Thanks Hans. I am supporting the Japanese economy these days.

Maybe for me, HMV = His Music Lover's Vice.

 

I used to call it 'Human Musical Virus' ...

 

What about the other two tracks?

 

Folks, I found this thread below to be a good reference. A lot of the topics being discussed here were addressed there.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=106383

 

heheehehe yes, they are there also... I posted EAC peaks for the first 3 tracks only because I had the log saved from previous tests where only the first 3 tracks were used for comparison.

So, is this CD a "bad" one or is this the original mastering?

 

That's a unique mix, although it was pressed up in various markets at the time.

It was the three-track session tapes transferred to digital directly, with no intervening analogue stereo mix-down tape. Everything before it was copy tapes of the original '59 stereo mix-down. Everything after was from a mix-down to analogue stereo tape done in '97.

Interestingly the spectral balance on the Mastersound Gold is very similar to the original '83 Sony CD.

It doesn't sound the same though. It has something of a digitalness to it that I can't really put my finger on. Sort of a sharp bite, but not really from EQ, something else. It might be something from that early Sony "Super Bit-Mapping" process. Or it might be this album needs that intervening analogue stage and some gentle subtractive EQ to shine. It does have a slightly wider stereo separation. The sound may appeal to you if you're tastes run to the "sharp and clear" mastering style.

Sorry, that doesn't really answer the "is it better" question. Maybe someone else more articulate then me can expand on that mastering's virtues.

 

That's the thread where Mark Wilder himself weighs in. I think I linked to it earlier? Not that another link hurts, of course.

One thing to note is that Austrian CD the thread starts out discussing turns out to be bit-for-bit digitally identical to the US "left-handed" '86 CDs, despite the mastering credits being different. I don't mean to stop anyone from liking it, just that there is no need to seek out a unique early Austrian mastering if you've already heard the '86 US one.

 

You say that, then immediately after this:

Which directly calls me to task for not liking the same exact mastering you do. Plus claims I'm trashing your favorite, when I've done no such thing. Then you state a bunch of "facts" that are dead wrong to "prove" that everyone should like just what you do.

A Gort has asked us both to knock it off. I've asked you twice to knock it off. I'll solve it by adding you to my ignore filter. . . .

 

I've done nothing remotely like that, I believe you are having some difficulty interpreting my posts. I think it is very unfair that you are accusing me of such things. Hopefully anyone reading this can understand what really happened... you became lost under your own argument/reasoning, and now you're trying to run away from it by accusing others of attacking you... which is just plain ridiculous. If you can't provide an acceptable background to your opinions that's fine, just don't blame me or anyone else for it

 

Peak Levels

35DP-62
Track 1: 67.6 %
Track 2: 68.0%
Track 3: 62.7%
Track 4: 67.0%
Track 5: 58.3%

32DP 513
Track 1: 99.3 %
Track 2: 99.8 %
Track 3: 60.1 %
Track 4: 71.9%
Track 5: 65.2 %

 

Thanks!

So the CD I mentioned before is a 32DP 513 mastering. Is this the famous "bad mastering"?

 

Thanks for the great overview and info on the Sony Gold disc ...

 

For sure the same mastering was used on European discs at the same time. I have examples of each, and they are identical. I don't mean "sound alike" I mean the EAC "compare waves" function reports all the samples are identical.

Going off this list:
http://www.kind-of-blue.de/seiten/boxen/miles_kob_box.htm
The only one listed there with the original mastering is the first one, Japan for Japan CBS/Sony, 35DP 62. Not listed there, but identical peak values, are CBS CK 08163 with either a Japan for US disc with 35DP 62 in the matrix, or a US made disc with DIDP 50062 in the matrix. I am not aware of a Euro release with this mastering, although it's possible some of the CK 08163 discs went there. The reason I think this is it uses CBS, not Columbia, branding.

Next the "bad" '86 mastering.
Most folks know this by the US Columbia CK 40579 with the wrong cover. That's the sixth one down on the page linked above.
The ones I've personally confirmed are identical are the Austrian made ones with the same cover; Cat# 460603 2, either CBS or Columbia branding.
Based on the peak values posted above (Thank you J3810!) I can now state that Japan for Japan 32DP 513 with the correct cover has the same mastering. The KoB site lists that with a release date of 1983, but that may be an error.
Also, we can add the Euro version with the correct cover and cat# 62066 to the "bad" list based on peak values.

The one listed on the KoB site I'm unsure of is the 1990 Japan for Japan CBS/Sony CSCS 5141. This was released after the "bad" mastering, but before the Mastersound Gold. Anyone have one of these?

 

Original 1983 Mastering
No mastering credits
(Likely Japan vault copy-tape, "un-futzed")

Japan CBS/Sony Cat# 35DP 62 Matrix: 35DP-62 (Correct Cover)
Japan for US CBS Cat# CK 08163 Matrix: 35DP-62 (Correct Cover)
US CBS Cat# CK 08163 Matrix: DIDP 50062 (Correct Cover)

Track 1: 67.6 %
Track 2: 68.0%
Track 3: 62.7%
Track 4: 67.0%
Track 5: 58.3%


Second 1986 Mastering
Credited variously to Larry Keyes (US) Ray Moore (EU)
(Severely rolled off top, possible noise reduction)

US Columbia Cat# CK 40579 Matrix: CK 40579 (Wrong Cover)
Austria Columbia Cat# 460603 2 Matrix: CDCBS-460603 (Wrong Cover)
Austria CBS Cat# 460603 2 Matrix: CDCBS-460603 (Wrong Cover)
Japan CBS/Sony Cat# 32DP 513 Matrix: 32DP 513 (Correct Cover)
Japan for EU CBS/Sony Cat# 62066 Matrix: DIDP-10505 (Correct Cover)
Austria CBS Cat# 62066 Matrix: CDCBS-460603 (Correct Cover)

Track 1: 99.3 %
Track 2: 99.8 %
Track 3: 60.1 %
Track 4: 71.9%
Track 5: 65.2 %

Notes:
This should cover every 1980's CD of Kind of Blue
All are the 1959 stereo mix, with the wrong pitch on the first three tracks
I am discounting my 8163 cover with 40579 disc as a possible switcheroo
Austria 460603 has three differing CBS label designs (and one Columbia)
CBS/Sony CSCS 5141 from 1990 is un-known, possibly unique

Edit: I just worked out a lot of this today.

 

OK, so, continuing where I left off.

Next we have the first re-mix, done from the three tracks direct to digital by Mark Wilder. This is the first release from the speed-correct back-up session tapes. These were issued on Gold "Mastersound" CDs starting in 1992.

US CK 64403 2
Track 1 - Peak level 86.1 %
Track 2 - Peak level 98.4 %
Track 3 - Peak level 62.5 %
Track 4 - Peak level 96.3 %
Track 5 - Peak level 59.9 %

I am making the assumption that all the Mastersound Gold CDs share the same mastering. The Sony "Legacy" label was specifically designed to globally unify the back-catalog.

But, if anyone has one of releases:

US - CK 52861 (longbox)
Japan - SRCS-6681
Japan - 480410 2

And it does not match those peaks could you let me know please?

 

Next we have the re-mix done by Mark Wilder in 1997, from the back-up three-track (correct speed) to a two-track analog tape, then mastered to CD. This adds the alt take of Flamenco Sketches. No EQ or dynamic processing was added at any stage of this mix/mastering.

This was released all over, with many differing label and package designs, but sharing catalogue CK 64935. Copies are plentiful and cheap. I have not tested every variation of packaging, but I am 99% certain all 64935s will match exactly. The DualDisc released as CN 90887 is bit-for-bit identical on the redbook side.

US CK 64935 (plus many global 64935 releases)
US CN 90887
Track 1 - Peak level 94.4 %
Track 2 - Peak level 94.4 %
Track 3 - Peak level 89.8 %
Track 4 - Peak level 94.4 %
Track 5 - Peak level 94.4 %
Track 6 - Peak level 94.4 % (Alt Flamenco)

The 1997 SACD (The one that Hoffman likes) shares catalogue CS 64935, with only the prefix differing. This was done by Mark Wilder, during the same sessions, but uses a slight bit of negative EQ @ 20k. One cannot rip an SACD, so I can't show peaks for it. Tonality should be very similar to the CD, with the advantage of hi-res.

 

One confirmed unique Mark Wilder mastering is the Kind of Blue tracks from the Miles/Trane boxset from 2000, 65833. This is sourced from the same '97 re-mix tape. The tracks here were rolled off a dB or so top and bottom, to match the tone of the rest of the set. I would imagine this mastering will never show up in another format. Just in case I'll list the peaks.

2000 US Miles/Trane Boxset
Track 3 - Freddie Freeloader - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 4 - So What - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 5 - Blue in Green - Peak level 92.3 %
Track 6 - Flamenco Sketches [alt take] - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 8 - Flamenco Sketches - Peak level 98.7 %
Track 9 - All Blues - Peak level 100.0 %

(Tracks are in chronological, not album, order.)

 

Next we have the 50th anniversary mega-deluxe edition just released, again sourced from the '97 Wilder re-mix tape. This is rolled off quite significantly on the top, about 3 dB. There is a dB or so boost to the mid-base, and the bottom octave is kicked up an additional 2dB. This mirrors Greg Calbi's comments about how he mastered the new blue vinyl in the same set; "with a little low end added for bass enhancement." So, perhaps the CD was tweaked to sound similar, or the other way 'round.

2008 US 50th Anniversary Deluxe Edition
Track 1 - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 2 - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 3 - Peak level 71.8 %
Track 4 - Peak level 90.2 %
Track 5 - Peak level 80.0 %
Track 6 - Peak level 80.9 % (Alt Flamenco)

(there are an additional nine tracks of chatter and false starts)

A two-CD not-so-deluxe 50th anniversary edition will come out next month. I will assume it has the same mastering.

 

And finally we have the obsessive Japanese releases. Seems they do the Miles catalogue every few years, in ever more accurate mini-LP sleeves. They go out of print the minute they hit the streets. I am expecting them all to be variations on a theme, with perhaps slight tweaks, but this is nothing more then a guess.

One thing to note about these; Mark Wilder says his '97 re-mix tape has only ever left his New York office once, to go to Bernie Grundman at Classic Records in CA. Something that states it is a recent DSD mastering of that tape done in Japan is likely sourced from the '97 SACD, EQ'ed, and down-sampled.

The most recent CD is the 2006 SICP 1206. This is the same '97 Wilder re-mix tape. Rolled off here roughly 2dB top and bottom. The dual-layer SACD from 2007, SICP 10083, shares this mastering on the redbook layer, and I assume the SACD layer has a similar tone.

2006 Japan SICP 1206
2007 Japan SICP 10083 (redbook layer)
Track 1 - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 2 - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 3 - Peak level 86.2 %
Track 4 - Peak level 100.0 %
Track 5 - Peak level 96.9 %


These are some of the other Japanese limited editions I have not tested:

1990 - CSCS 5141 (likely original mix)
1996 - SRCS 9104
1999 - SRGS 4501 (SACD)
2000 - SRCS 9701
2005 - SICP 816
2008 - SICP-20001 (Blue Ray Audio)

Does anyone in Hoffman land have one of these discs?

 

Please note, again, that I am not trying to make value judgments related to any of these facts. I have my favorites, you can have yours. I'm simply trying to help folks know what the options are, so they can make their own choice. Listen, and enjoy. . . .

That said, there are some masterings here that differ quite drastically.